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The origin of the Scottich

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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 20th June 2006, 22:20
SherbrookeJacobite
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For once I mostly agree with what you've said here. The only point I'll disagree on is that genetic testing has shown that the previously assumed "massive influx" of Nordic and Anglo-Saxon blood was not as massive as once thought. The ancient inhabitants of Great Britain may have descended from people who once lived in the middle east - but it was 20,000 or 30,000 years ago. The 'modern' (last 1000 years or so) natives of the British Isles are mostly descended from the people who spread out across Europe after the last ice age (around 10,000 years ago).
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Old 20th June 2006, 22:41
DistantCelt DistantCelt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherbrookeJacobite
For once I mostly agree with what you've said here. The only point I'll disagree on is that genetic testing has shown that the previously assumed "massive influx" of Nordic and Anglo-Saxon blood was not as massive as once thought. The ancient inhabitants of Great Britain may have descended from people who once lived in the middle east - but it was 20,000 or 30,000 years ago. The 'modern' (last 1000 years or so) natives of the British Isles are mostly descended from the people who spread out across Europe after the last ice age (around 10,000 years ago).
I am pretty sure that if we go back as long ago as 20,000 or 30,000 years, there would be no difference in ANY of the ethnicities of the old world, right down from South Africa to Laapland(some New world tribes may've seperated slightly before that but that is a possibility,not a confirmation). By massive influx, i didnt mean majority of the bloodlines. I havnt seen the latest research but from what i know, there is noticable traces of nordic and anglo-saxon lineage in the Isles, enough for it to be considered one of the prime influencing factors on the original celtic and pictish population.

But this whole Jewish angle that i've noticed some North Americans and few isle-dwellers espouse is nothing more than serious revisionist history that seeks to ignore the fact that Jewish history of the isles barely go back 1000 years, let alone any biblical migrations and what not.
A lot of confusion stems from the fact that Ireland was one of the first regions of northern Europe to be christianised and early christianised nations had a tendency to try and associate their bloodlines with Christ or Christ's followers to seek some sort of moral legitimacy. In the post WWII days that has evolved to a need for some to identify with Jewish folks for some sort of continuacy of 'chosen people' crap.
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Old 21st June 2006, 22:37
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Jewish names have been found in the population that predate Christianity. Also over 30% of genetic testing so far on ireland alone has rendered Jewish DNA in the ancient families. So I feel there may be alot to some of it. I reserve judgement here but there is certainly enough evidence gathered in Ireland to suggest there is more to it than meets the eye.
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Old 21st June 2006, 23:38
DistantCelt DistantCelt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wild-in-tent
Jewish names have been found in the population that predate Christianity. Also over 30% of genetic testing so far on ireland alone has rendered Jewish DNA in the ancient families. So I feel there may be alot to some of it. I reserve judgement here but there is certainly enough evidence gathered in Ireland to suggest there is more to it than meets the eye.
That is because those 'jewish' names arnt jewish in the first place. Names are regional and common throughout same linguistic/cultural spheres and sometimes even outside it.
I've met Iranians named Shiva and they arnt Indians or hindus and havnt been for ages. Sonia is a Russian name(Sonja) but found in Italy and India.I've met a couple of caucasian guys named Mohammed and one named 'abede'.
You forget, the jewish culture was rudimentary and utterly overshadowed by far more established and older near eastern cultures who influenced not only judaism (bulk borrowing from egyptian and mesopotamian mythologies) but the culture of ancient israel. Its the same situation with Afghanistan and Iran-Iranian cultural influence over afghanistan is significant-more than afghani culture itself. Same with Nepal and India. As such, its like taking the name 'Petr' and declaring that Petr is a moldovian name(while totally ignoring the far more populous and prevalent use of the name in Russia). Or taking the name 'Juan' to be an American name(despite its origin and prevalence in far more noteworthy regions).

Also, jewish DNA testing is done largely incorrectly. The benchmark varience falls in accordance to the Ashkenazim(who comprise 90% of the world jewery today) rather than the Sephardim,Mizrahim,Lebanese,Syrians,Jodanians or the Palestinains, who are not only closer to each other genetically than any of them to Ashkenazim, their DNA is closer to the near-eastern DNA than the Ashkenazim.
As such, its a bit like bulk of the christians(say the christians only married christian and you couldnt convert-ie, christianity is a racist concept) in the world save Brazil are wiped out and 500 years later, given that Brazilian christians comprise 90% of the world's christian 'race', every latino from the new world claim to be 'related to' the original christians because well, their DNA shows much closer links to 'then current' christians. Which would be an erroneous conclusion and which is why DNA testing for historic genologies remains a highly controversial and inconclusive subject.

Not to mention, most genes identified as 'jewish' genes are actually near-eastern genes commonly shared by arabs, egyptians,etc. Genetic variations mutate over time-not just through evolutionary response but through intermingling of two streams isolated for a while. Egypt was powerful once and for thousands of years no one invaded Egypt. The few small invasions (such as the Hyksos) were small population-base of foreign invaders trying to take advantage of internal instability rather than en masse migrations or mixing. As such, pharonic egyptian dna would be closer to Nigerian or Sudanese dna today, despite the fact that egyptian dna today is closer to arabian and berber. It is ironic that so many pro-zionists claim about jewish this,jewish that but none of it can stand the test of qualitative analysis, since even by the basic population modelling, the '10 lost tribes' would've been absorbed into various far more populous nationalities through mixing. Its like taking a bucket of sugar and distributing it over 30 sacks of sand. after mixing thoroughly, you dont have sugar in the sacks, you still have sand with specks of sugar here and there. Yet the sugar folks(zionsts in this analogy) go around climing that all 30 are sacks of sugar.
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Old 22nd June 2006, 01:32
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There are several Jewish names that are pre Christian and very Distinct and not found anywhere else other than Israel. Zionists did not exist in Ireland at that time when those same names were used by said inhabitants.

It is common knowledge that ancient Persia ruled India, thereby imparting names and extracting names from the Indian population was a common occurence. Russia is not far from Italy and note at one time the French who were in the Russian Court also used the name, also note Vienna also influenced Russia in medieval times....etc....so it is not as cut and dried nor generalized as you might think.....

Many Jewish names are Hebraic in nature and though Arabic is a close language and they share some names in common, the spelling and pronunciations of many things are distinct including many names. Children were named as a general rule after tribal Patriachs in Arabic Culture, in Hebrew names were discriptive and tied to prophecies given to the prophets as well as Patriarchal names, Arabs did not use prophetic names till after Mohammed. Ishmaelites did use Abraham as he was a forefather but they shunned names that had to do with Isaac's children and they were in fact in enmity with Isaac's tribes having many wars with them. Names can be easily picked up on trade routes etc. so most names aren't reliable, but to have distinct Hebrew names tied to specific people in said culture, which concurs with data in Ireland as being around the same time as Jewish ships not only traded with Irish tribes but stayed in Ireland according to Irish annals, 3 different ships are recorded to have unloaded people from Israel who permanently became part of the population. Also artifacts from Ireland were found in Israel that predated any known time frame. 2,000 years prior to the data that they previously had. They also found artifacts in Ireland from the Israeli territories. So zionism aside, science is showing that there is something very interesting going on...and serious researchers Jew hating or not have to sit up and realize that what they see is there in black and white in front of them....and more and more is turning up....so the people need not form biased conclusions one way or the other as it is still premature to do anything of the sort. Let them dig I say...and we shall see.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DistantCelt
That is because those 'jewish' names arnt jewish in the first place. Names are regional and common throughout same linguistic/cultural spheres and sometimes even outside it.
I've met Iranians named Shiva and they arnt Indians or hindus and havnt been for ages. Sonia is a Russian name(Sonja) but found in Italy and India.I've met a couple of caucasian guys named Mohammed and one named 'abede'.
You forget, the jewish culture was rudimentary and utterly overshadowed by far more established and older near eastern cultures who influenced not only judaism (bulk borrowing from egyptian and mesopotamian mythologies) but the culture of ancient israel. Its the same situation with Afghanistan and Iran-Iranian cultural influence over afghanistan is significant-more than afghani culture itself. Same with Nepal and India. As such, its like taking the name 'Petr' and declaring that Petr is a moldovian name(while totally ignoring the far more populous and prevalent use of the name in Russia). Or taking the name 'Juan' to be an American name(despite its origin and prevalence in far more noteworthy regions).

Also, jewish DNA testing is done largely incorrectly. The benchmark varience falls in accordance to the Ashkenazim(who comprise 90% of the world jewery today) rather than the Sephardim,Mizrahim,Lebanese,Syrians,Jodanians or the Palestinains, who are not only closer to each other genetically than any of them to Ashkenazim, their DNA is closer to the near-eastern DNA than the Ashkenazim.
As such, its a bit like bulk of the christians(say the christians only married christian and you couldnt convert-ie, christianity is a racist concept) in the world save Brazil are wiped out and 500 years later, given that Brazilian christians comprise 90% of the world's christian 'race', every latino from the new world claim to be 'related to' the original christians because well, their DNA shows much closer links to 'then current' christians. Which would be an erroneous conclusion and which is why DNA testing for historic genologies remains a highly controversial and inconclusive subject.

Not to mention, most genes identified as 'jewish' genes are actually near-eastern genes commonly shared by arabs, egyptians,etc. Genetic variations mutate over time-not just through evolutionary response but through intermingling of two streams isolated for a while. Egypt was powerful once and for thousands of years no one invaded Egypt. The few small invasions (such as the Hyksos) were small population-base of foreign invaders trying to take advantage of internal instability rather than en masse migrations or mixing. As such, pharonic egyptian dna would be closer to Nigerian or Sudanese dna today, despite the fact that egyptian dna today is closer to arabian and berber. It is ironic that so many pro-zionists claim about jewish this,jewish that but none of it can stand the test of qualitative analysis, since even by the basic population modelling, the '10 lost tribes' would've been absorbed into various far more populous nationalities through mixing. Its like taking a bucket of sugar and distributing it over 30 sacks of sand. after mixing thoroughly, you dont have sugar in the sacks, you still have sand with specks of sugar here and there. Yet the sugar folks(zionsts in this analogy) go around climing that all 30 are sacks of sugar.
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Last edited by wild-in-tent; 22nd June 2006 at 01:47.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 22nd June 2006, 01:58
DistantCelt DistantCelt is offline
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Quote:
There are several Jewish names that are pre Christian and very Distinct and not found anywhere else other than Israel. Zionists did not exist in Ireland at that time when those same names were used by said inhabitants.
Not really. Semetic names have been found throughout the near-east even in biblical times. And given the extensive phoenician fleet contact with rest of Europe, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that those names didnt end up through phoenician routes or various other routes. Not to mention, there is very little pre-900 ADs writing existing from Scotland/Ireland and as such, any hypothesisation is pure conjencture and largely based on the christian king's tendencies to take christian names(which are ultimately shared by many jews too).

Quote:
It is common knowledge that ancient Persia ruled India, thereby imparting names and extracting names from the Indian population was a common occurence. Russia is not far from Italy and note at one time the French who were in the Russian Court also used the name, also note Vienna also influenced Russia in medieval times....etc....so it is not as cut and dried nor generalized as you might think.....
Persians never ruled India anymore than India ruled Persia. During Kurash's time, a small fringe of the subcontinent around Punjab/NWFP was a vassal to the Persian king while south-eastern Persia was under subcontinental control under Ashoka.
My point is, names transfer through cultures and regions without any direct correlation of the ethnicities or intermingling- a name that is russian in origin can be found even in India even though it has no connotations and vice versa(Anita is an Indian name for eg).

Quote:
Many Jewish names are Hebraic in nature and though Arabic is a close language and they share some names in common, the spelling and pronunciations of many things are distinct including many names. Children were named as a general rule after tribal Patriachs in Arabic Culture, in Hebrew names were discriptive and tied to prophecies given to the prophets as well as Patriarchal names, Arabs did not use prophetic names till after Mohammed. Ishmaelites did use Abraham as he was a forefather but they shunned names that had to do with Isaac's children and they were in fact in enmity with Isaac's tribes having many wars with them.
The bulk of the jewish name can be found around near-eastern areas, from antiquity to this day. The arabs or the other non-arab near eastern cultures had no problems using names that are common in biblical israel. And given the relative obscurity of Israel in those days coupled with the far higher sophistication and development shown by mesopotamia,egypt and greece, it is much more likely that the 'jewish' names themselves were borrowed from these more illustrious cultures than an indigenous creation,given their prevalence in the region outside of Jewish communities.

Fact is, all this DNA testing along ethnic lines to prove one's 'jewishness' or 'celticness' is fairly obscure and utilises several assumptions that are often in contradiction with historical fact (such as linear descendance from the same group with little or no external DNA influence-which is categorically false in many cases). There has been very little association of chromosomal data to one particular ethnicity or another ( many of the haplotypes that were thought to be 'jewish' for example are shared by a far bigger group spread worldwide that significantly outnumers the jewish population post and pre holocaust by several orders of magnitude. It is simply the other way round- that the jews were a subset of a much larger regional group (such as punjabis to India) instead of the whole group comming magically from the ancient Israelis, which cannot be supported by population trend data and analysis.

There is probably a very small actual jewish dna in the Scots today but if you look for the correct things (and if we are able to associate chromosomes or haplotypes with a particular group-which we havnt been yet) you will find similar levels of even Bantu DNA or turkic DNA in the frey.

The whole Jewishness angle is simply unsubstantiated for the bulk of it and relies on psuedo-science for the most part.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 22nd June 2006, 05:05
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We are speaking of Celts here who had the names prior to Biblical times, Christians began in AD, some Celtic names are older than the Apostles writing the Bible and beginning Christianity. NOTE Israelites were on Phoenician ships. There is tons of evidence showing that the Phoenicians had Israelite sailors aboard and in fact the Tribe of Dan had alliances with Phoenicia. This is in Israelite records and Phoenician. So yes Phoenicians and Israelites came together and separately. Artifacts show both had ties with each other and with Ireland. Note I mentioned this above already that these Kings had Israelite names BEFORE Christian times.
So as I said, I await further study and will hold my own counsel on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DistantCelt
Not really. Semetic names have been found throughout the near-east even in biblical times. And given the extensive phoenician fleet contact with rest of Europe, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that those names didnt end up through phoenician routes or various other routes. Not to mention, there is very little pre-900 ADs writing existing from Scotland/Ireland and as such, any hypothesisation is pure conjencture and largely based on the christian king's tendencies to take christian names(which are ultimately shared by many jews too).



Persians never ruled India anymore than India ruled Persia. During Kurash's time, a small fringe of the subcontinent around Punjab/NWFP was a vassal to the Persian king while south-eastern Persia was under subcontinental control under Ashoka.
My point is, names transfer through cultures and regions without any direct correlation of the ethnicities or intermingling- a name that is russian in origin can be found even in India even though it has no connotations and vice versa(Anita is an Indian name for eg).



The bulk of the jewish name can be found around near-eastern areas, from antiquity to this day. The arabs or the other non-arab near eastern cultures had no problems using names that are common in biblical israel. And given the relative obscurity of Israel in those days coupled with the far higher sophistication and development shown by mesopotamia,egypt and greece, it is much more likely that the 'jewish' names themselves were borrowed from these more illustrious cultures than an indigenous creation,given their prevalence in the region outside of Jewish communities.

Fact is, all this DNA testing along ethnic lines to prove one's 'jewishness' or 'celticness' is fairly obscure and utilises several assumptions that are often in contradiction with historical fact (such as linear descendance from the same group with little or no external DNA influence-which is categorically false in many cases). There has been very little association of chromosomal data to one particular ethnicity or another ( many of the haplotypes that were thought to be 'jewish' for example are shared by a far bigger group spread worldwide that significantly outnumers the jewish population post and pre holocaust by several orders of magnitude. It is simply the other way round- that the jews were a subset of a much larger regional group (such as punjabis to India) instead of the whole group comming magically from the ancient Israelis, which cannot be supported by population trend data and analysis.

There is probably a very small actual jewish dna in the Scots today but if you look for the correct things (and if we are able to associate chromosomes or haplotypes with a particular group-which we havnt been yet) you will find similar levels of even Bantu DNA or turkic DNA in the frey.

The whole Jewishness angle is simply unsubstantiated for the bulk of it and relies on psuedo-science for the most part.
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