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Old 7th April 2006, 20:06
ANDY-J3 ANDY-J3 is offline
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The sources listing Arthur's battles confirm he was in Scotland fighting the Picts. I think the most compelling argument for his origins was that he was a Romano-British chieftan of the Goddodin-the tribe that controlled the Lothians during the dark ages. When the Romans left they were the only Britons with experience of war (against the Picts) and some historians have tentatively suggested that the Roman fort of Camelon,was the site of Camelot. I think the language that evolved into Welsh appeared in Wales with the first Brythonic settlers who arrived during the Bronze Age several centuries before the Romans arrived.
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Old 7th April 2006, 21:52
Tartan Paint Tartan Paint is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANDY-J3
The sources listing Arthur's battles confirm he was in Scotland fighting the Picts. I think the most compelling argument for his origins was that he was a Romano-British chieftan of the Goddodin-the tribe that controlled the Lothians during the dark ages. When the Romans left they were the only Britons with experience of war (against the Picts) and some historians have tentatively suggested that the Roman fort of Camelon,was the site of Camelot. I think the language that evolved into Welsh appeared in Wales with the first Brythonic settlers who arrived during the Bronze Age several centuries before the Romans arrived.

The Lothians, that would seem to fit in well with "Arthur's seat". I've done a bit of reading about the various people inhabiting 'Caldeonia' at this time but i haven't dug deep as yet and read about specific battles or tribes anything like that. I only know what they were called collectively. What were they known as this tribe? Did they ever fight with the Picts? Were they one of the tribes that made up the 'Britons'? Is that the correct word for them? P-Gaelic can't have many speakers left. It's quite amazing that these languages live on 2,000 years later and that the stones they left behind still stand to this day. I read somewhere that the tallest Pictish stone in Scotland is 20ft tall, or was it 27ft tall. I can't remember, but they sure went to some lengths to arrange them in various positions. What can you tell me about Ley Lines? I'm just going to read about them on this site: http://www.leyman.demon.co.uk/Standi...er_Points.html Is it hocus pocus nonsense or what?
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Old 7th April 2006, 22:20
Tartan Paint Tartan Paint is offline
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Scroll 3/4 of the way down the page "The Rocking stone of Glen Tarken". If that was placed there then it must have taken some amount of effort. What are spin torsion fields? He talks about them as if we should know.
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Old 8th April 2006, 08:41
ANDY-J3 ANDY-J3 is offline
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Originally posted by Tartan Paint

The Lothians, that would seem to fit in well with "Arthur's seat". I've done a bit of reading about the various people inhabiting 'Caldeonia' at this time but i haven't dug deep as yet and read about specific battles or tribes anything like that. I only know what they were called collectively. What were they known as this tribe? Did they ever fight with the Picts? Were they one of the tribes that made up the 'Britons'? Is that the correct word for them? P-Gaelic can't have many speakers left. It's quite amazing that these languages live on 2,000 years later and that the stones they left behind still stand to this day. I read somewhere that the tallest Pictish stone in Scotland is 20ft tall, or was it 27ft tall. I can't remember, but they sure went to some lengths to arrange them in various positions. What can you tell me about Ley Lines? I'm just going to read about them on this site: http://www.leyman.demon.co.uk/Standi...er_Points.html Is it hocus pocus nonsense or what?

The battles of Arthur are listed in writings of an Anglo Saxon cleric called the venerable Bede and the site of only one of them-the Caledonian forest- is known,so while Arthur can't definitely be placed in England or Wales it is known that he fought in Scotland. The Mannau Gododdin were a Brythonic tribe and their name can still be found in the modern names Slammanan and Clackmannan and they were probably the Votadini tribe shown in Ptolomey's map of British tribes. The Dark age tribes of Scotland were constantly at war with each other and the Angles of Northumbria and the Vikings so yes the Gododin would have fought as allies of the Picts on occasion as well as fighting against them. I don't know much about ley lines. I think that is an unrelated matter based on dubious evidence in my opinion and I focus more on the historical evidence.
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Old 9th April 2006, 22:18
Tartan Paint Tartan Paint is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANDY-J3
The battles of Arthur are listed in writings of an Anglo Saxon cleric called the venerable Bede and the site of only one of them-the Caledonian forest- is known,so while Arthur can't definitely be placed in England or Wales it is known that he fought in Scotland. The Mannau Gododdin were a Brythonic tribe and their name can still be found in the modern names Slammanan and Clackmannan and they were probably the Votadini tribe shown in Ptolomey's map of British tribes. The Dark age tribes of Scotland were constantly at war with each other and the Angles of Northumbria and the Vikings so yes the Gododin would have fought as allies of the Picts on occasion as well as fighting against them. I don't know much about ley lines. I think that is an unrelated matter based on dubious evidence in my opinion and I focus more on the historical evidence.

I've heard of the Votadini before, were they around at the same time as the Maeatae? From what i can gather the Picts were 'divided' into two main groups, northern Picts and southern Picts. Caledoni in the north and Maeatae in the south but they were collectively known as "pictii". I know the Ley lines is drifting away from the topic, i found the site while doing a search, i know you're a bit of a historian so i value you're opinion. I prefer reading the historical evidence myself anyway. Having read the link the other poster left it does raise only more questions. I read this as well: http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...part1chap4.htm It seems to be saying that the Highland clans descended from the Northen Picts and that the Lowlanders descended from the Southern Picts as well as the Scots of Dalriada. That's my understanding of it anyway. There seems to be only a 23 year period (917AD-940AD) that they can't be sure about. It says both the Norse Sagas and the Annals of Ulster are in agreement, except for this short period where nothing is mentioned. What do you think about that? I was under the impression that the Scots were the "Gaels" and that the Picts didn't fall into that grouping. As for Arthur there is a lot of evidence which certainly points towards him being in Scotland. Can you just clarify one thing for me, "Brythonic" is that what we call 'Welsh' speakers? Similar to Pictish language but not quite the same?

Last edited by Tartan Paint; 10th April 2006 at 09:08.
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Old 10th April 2006, 13:08
ANDY-J3 ANDY-J3 is offline
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Ptolemey's map details the tribal names at the time of the Roman invasion of Scotland in the second century AD when the northern tribes are still known as the Caledonii and the term Maetae doesn't appear until a few centuries later,referring to the southern branch of the Pictish kingdom. When Votadini became Gododin is not known because there is a lack of textual evidence but it was probably around the same time as the term Maetae came into use. That particular historian is putting forward his own viewpoint that highland clansmen are descended from the northern Picts however the accepted truth is that they were descended from the inhabitants of Dalriada-most historians would question his conclusions. The origin of lowland Scots is not really in question-they are mostly a mixture of Britons,Picts and Anglo-Saxons. Brythonic is a term applied to a distinct cultural and linguistic group of the Celts-the Britons-and Welsh,Cornish and Breton are derived from that common Brythonic language. As regards the Picts evidence is scarce but it is generally accepted that they spoke a Brythonic dialect mixed with a few words and phrases from the language of the pre-Celtic inhabitants. It is known that they definitely did not speak Gaelic because saint Columba required a translator to talk to them and there is therefore some doubt as to whether they did speak a Celtic language at all.
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Old 11th April 2006, 20:31
Laeg Laeg is offline
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Don't know if this is any help. But Isobel Henderson may have a point.


'The Ancient Peoples'

Isobel Henderson,a well-known authority on the Picts,has written, 'If we Scots like to think of ourselves as something distinct from an Irish colony,then it is the spirit of the tribes who went to make up the Picts that we must invoke''

'Opinion is divided on whether the Picts of Scotland and the Cruithni or Cruthin of Ulster were essentially the same people. Many authorities, noting the more obvious linguistic and cultural differences[such as the Pickish custom of reckoning succession through the female line] argue they were not. However Eoin MacNeill[co-founder of the Gaelic league,and one time Professor of Early Irish History] firmily believed that both were of the same Pretanic stock.
Cardinal Tomas O'Fiaich, apropos of the coming of the Celts to Ireland,wrote,'With their arrival a new era had begun in Ireland. The Picts in Ulster and other pre Celtic peoples were overthrown.

Older histories of Galloway and the south-west of Scotland
refer to a little - known settlement,apparently mainly of Cruthin from Ulster, in these regions. Unlike the much better-known migration of the Dal Riata to Argyll,there is no tradition or even suggestion that kings,princes or other leaders accompied them,so it is not suprising that no great importance has been attached to the movement by modern national historians,and many ignore it altogether.
Elsewhere historians of the nineteenth century wrote of such a migration with considerable certainity and confidence,describing the settlers variously as 'Irish Picts','Cruthin or Irish Picts', 'Galloway Cruthin'or Galloway Picts.
According to George Chalmers the main Cruthinic migration to Galloway occured in the eighth century A.D.and was followed by 'fresh swarms from the Ulster hive in the ninth and tenth centuries. Local historian Peter McKerlie considered that the movement began in the sixth century and continued 'until the Ulster settlers were so numerous as to become the dominant people'. They both argued that the name Pict was introduced to Galloway with the Cruthin and referred to Ulster immigrants rather than indigenous groups.
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