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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 6th July 2005, 08:44
aNonnyMoose aNonnyMoose is offline
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Originally posted by TheScottishEconomist
I read the first review of the book in yesterdays Herald by TC Smout (not a nationalist historian if you are wondering) who surmises that “Michael Fry denies the Highland Clearances happened, but fails to make his case”. This passage is interesting: “Above all, like all too many books on Highland history, it is written to further a contemporary agenda”, he goes on to say Fry “inhales the dizzying vapours of the new right and whoops up the virtues of the untrammelled free market. He is a little at odds with Michael Fry the historian of Dundas, sympathising with Old Tory private paternalists trying to cushion Highlanders from the market.”
Damned with faint praise indeed... Smout is indeed far from a nationalist historian, but it doesn't mean that his work is without merit in many places. Fry's just another of the new breed of 'historian' like Graham Morton, who are trying to make a name for themselves by being controversial. Fiona Watson has upset a few traditionalists by her interpretation of some events, but she's doing it by using proper research, not sensation-seeking.
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Old 6th July 2005, 19:43
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Scottish_Republican Scottish_Republican is offline
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Originally posted by TheScottishEconomist
None taken. It should however be remembered that Adam Smith had a significant influence on Marx and other socialist thinkers, and perhaps the differences are not as great as might be assumed.
Well, I have pointed that out here before. On the international politics forum I think.

Some people think that Marx could not have written Das Kapital without the Wealth of Nations.

It is notable that Smith thought that the "wealth" should be put to philanthropic use, i.e. that it was not to be the exploitative capitalism some of his "followers" preach, but one where there were no excessively poor people. But his "followers", perhaps like those of Marx, not to mention Jesus, haven't always followed him to the letter.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 6th July 2005, 19:48
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Scottish_Republican Scottish_Republican is offline
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Originally posted by aNonnyMoose
Fry's just another of the new breed of 'historian' like Graham Morton, who are trying to make a name for themselves by being controversial. Fiona Watson has upset a few traditionalists by her interpretation of some events, but she's doing it by using proper research, not sensation-seeking.
There's quite a few of these controversial historians. You get them everywhere. Ideally, take an accepted idea and challenge it. They should at least try to back up their ideas, but not all of them do.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 8th July 2005, 06:01
wanderingmutt wanderingmutt is offline
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Very irritating. I can't access the link in order to read what you're talking about. It just keeps saying that the article could not be found.
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Old 27th July 2005, 21:29
thetruth thetruth is offline
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Michael Fry's book, is another of the endless number of books which claim that the monarchy and aristocracy are infallible and never did anything wrong. They say so in other words we should be ruled by lords, and ladies, and billionaires like bin laden, and the king of saudi arabia. The fact is these books come all the time, and they are so hackneyed, and so holocaust denial it makes me sigh. For instance they normally have inacuracies, and the constant statement of people who critise these people, is that they are wrong. But the writers allways claim this is freedom of speech. Apparently freedom of speech means if somebody says something dangerous and wrong they should be beyond critisism, but if they say something right they should not be. The book is wrong, and it makes many silly claims. Such as the claim that Prebble invented the clearances. I have a book written in the 1940s and it mentions the clearances. Even Prince Albert, and Charles Trevelyan, (the man who helped the Irish famine Spiral out of all reality- of course somebody has written a charming little book which claims he was the nivcest man in history, and not responsible for anything bad ever, all part of royal infallibilty, forgetting the million who died in his watch, and the fact nobody died under Gladstone's watch in 1870s when a famine just as bad occurred, but saw aid come), was a member of a organisation encouraging Scots to emigrate. The Dukes of Sutherland meanwhile became the richest men in Britain as of this. And America remained a poorer land than many parts of Britain too the earlyu 20th Century, showing it was not emigration to a land of plenty, He also claims, that the famine of the 1840s did not happen. He is surely mistaken, but his reasoning is unbelievable, in it's simplicity. Apparently as there were no mass graves this means there was no famine. QED, he seems to feel. Oh dear chap, you must be happy to shake hands with mad dog adair, and the leader's of the IRA as the fact there are no mass graves for the victims of terrorism, in Ulster, obviously means that there was no terroriosm, in Ulster. And the absecense of mass graves in Britain for the recent bomb in London, must mean according to him that the terrorists never struck London. dear fellow, I pity you, I have to tell you this, there was a famine, in 1840s Scotland, I read the newspapers, like the Times, from the 1840s, and they mention how 100s, lost their lives through a typhus epidemic caused by this. That is more per head than the amount of people who died in Zimbabwe recently of famine, or in Ethiopia, in the 1999 famine, and only slightly below King (kim) Ul sung's North Korea. The men and women who lost their lives were buried individually. Also did you know Inverness actually banned many Highlanders from entering the town in 1831, as of the mass poverty caused by the clearances. It had a cholera epidemic twice even the level of London that year. I tell you also that the claim is that the people volunteered to go on the ships. Well so what it was their only option, either get off the land, or die, or emigrate. In some years it was emigrate to very poor cities, or emigrate to America. Of course many would choose America and many died as of that. Just like many who fled Milosevic fled across mountains, and many fled to other places, soem died and some did, not, It still means Milosevic is responsible. It is horrible to think theri are so many highland clearance denial books, I suspect if you put them all together they would be so contradictory it would be proof alone the clearances occurred. It is all as the dukes and duchesses who benfitted so enormously never admitted guilt. This is terrible, and the worst thing, that they comitted crimes that made them millionaires, and they never admitted it was bad. They became astonishigly wealthy as of it, and never admit. All they do is have books written which pity them, claiming the ships were great (of course some were, just like some gulags were better than others, but it is does not mean that nobody died in the gulags) or that yes it happened, but they did not have the brains to realise it was causing such stresses and strains to locals, or that it was an attempt to improve the lives of locals, by evicting the locals, and becoming millionaires, the fact they became rich of course had nothing to do with their aims, as of course all lords are super human angels, and everybody else is a theif and a scumbag, and especially john prebble and anybody who founds a union. The books are ndless rehashes and allways rely on innuendo crap. Such as the statement by many fools, "if the population of the highlands increased during the clearances does that not mean they never occurred", That is seen as some kind of evidence that the historical records that hundreds of thousands were evicted, did not occur, and must of course have been written by radical communists, and bigoted unthoughtful lefties, not caring about the poor little rich girl, who evcted all her tennants causing many to die, i mean we must allways care about the rich, not the poor, that it was not the duke's agent's who wrote the, or conservative and liberal newspaper columnists, or maybe were written by Tommy Sheridan and his close peronal buddies in the right's imagination pol pot, and the devil, no lets face it pal, the reason why the population rose was because the British nation was industrialising, and rapidly upping in population but even through that the Highlands barely upped at all. In 1750 the Highlands had 300,000 people, In 1850 only 350,000, between that era Britain had more than doubled in population, and the nation of Wales, had increased from only 500,000 too a massive 1.2million, a more than doubleing. Allot for a nation from which many had emigrated to Liverpool. The population of the USSR increaed by 20 milloion in thr 1930s, but only a fool would claim that this meant the Ukrainian famine never happened. If the Ukrainian famine, had happened, under a rightist, right wing historians would be using that as evidence that the famine was made up by Marxists, and good people. The fact is that God is probably puinishing the brutal criminal Dukes and duchesses of Sutherland for their crimes, by burning them in hell beside Pol Pot, Queen Victoria, and the Kaiser. He is probabaly very angry that every few years somebody writes another book claiming that aristocrats and right wingers are infallible, and that nothing bad ever happened, under them, the whole idea of the books, is that we should be ruled by nazis and royalists, for ever, and hate equality, and hate freedom, and love oppression, and forget the crimes of evil people, and pretend evil peopel were good, and pretend Tommy Sheridan is evil, These useless royalist right wing historians are demons who hate the idea that lower class Scotsmen, have rights, and will do everything to make us their slaves. They allways claim that left wingers are responsible for everthing bad, and that the right wing were nice people, the fact is they were uncaring, you just have to read statements like those of Victoria, and Salisbury to see theri hatred and disdain for the lower orders, and love of monarchy.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 27th July 2005, 21:41
thetruth thetruth is offline
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This claim "victor nation" sounds facist to me. What on earth is anybody claiming that Scotland was a victor nation for in 1800, Come on, only a few decades before, Highanders were banned from wearing tartan, and from being in many parts of social life, How can you claim we were a victor nation when our ancestors could be evicted off land, at will, and were still in soem cases serfs too 1799, the vast majority of Scots did not have the right to vote, and were very poor indeed. Surely we are a victor nation today. because we have the right to vote, and the right of freedom in allmost every respect. The english were not a victor nation either, they still were mostly very poor aswell. And is the claim then that Ireland is not a victor nation, or the native americans are not, or the australian abros, are not, or maybe that the french are not, or the english are not. It is a meanignless phrase that is Hitler-like, In the sense that if nazi forces march into Paris, Germans are supposed to say yippeee, we are a vcitor nation as we are massacring foreigners, that is what is meant by victor nation, we are supposed to be proud of Clive of india causing the indian famine of 1770, and of the eradiaction of aussie abros, and nz maoris, and of canadian natives, and of killing 10000 americans in prisoner of war hulks in 1780s, but a victor nation apparently forget it's own families, it's won mmums, dads, brothers, sisters, my ancestors who were evcited by hellbound vermin in the 1840s, yes apparently a German communist jailed in 1933 should not be unhappy his relatives have been burned in concentartion camps, in 1940, as at least siome scumbag has comitrted "victor nation" acts, something to make all the scumbags really proud, well i will never be rpioud of being a victor nation, i will never be proud of evil and hurt, i think that clive of india, was like bin laden, and that the dukes of sutherlands were like the taleban, they were criminals, and should be hated as cum and vermin, and never liked, i hate them, and thin fry should be very ashamed, as he does not care about his true victor nation, that is the nation of scotlanjd which ahs made it impossible for things like the clearweances or people like him, or his freinds ever to rule this ocean of peace, and socialism, ever again.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 27th July 2005, 21:49
thetruth thetruth is offline
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we should be proud of our selves, we should be proud of our own ancestors not past kings, we should be proud of the chartists, and world war two being won, and socialists who fought for france in the 1800s, to end serfdom there, we should never pride in scum, like the dukes of sutherlands of the 1840s, who was just like a conquistador, except he was doing it to his own nation. people like michael fry are the bin ladens of britain, in that they think life should be about fighting for meanignless evils, the clearances did happen, i have a history book from 1940 and it mentions "the clearances". It was a normal quite conservative text book, and the claim it was invented by prebble, is a type of claim that is just beyond my comprehension of how low these highland clearance deniers will go. They are the lowest of the low
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