Stirling Bridge Discussion (long text !)

[Maes]

Hi to you all,

I don't know if I am at the right spot, but there is something I would like to discuss. When I was looking on the internet for some nice pictures and maps of the site of battle of Stirling Bridge, I noticed that there are different maps: most of the maps show that the Bridge where the battle was fought, was very close where the stone bridge stands now. But, on http://www.scottishhistory.com/artic...ps/sbridge.jpg I found a map that shows the bridge at a place called Kildean, a mile upstream from the stone bridge. Confused as I was, I wrote a mail to David R. Ross (Author & Convenor of the Society of William Wallace) asking his opinion on this, and this is David's reaction on it: "The bridge that the battle was fought over in 1297 was just a few metres upstream from the stone bridge that is there today. When the river is very low in the summer and there have been many dry days, you can actually see the stumps of the piers of the bridge from Wallace 's day just above the water. I do not know why the map on scottishhistory.com shows such a wrong position. It has the battle placed at a place called Kildean, and there is a ford there, but it is not where the battle was fought."

After reading this, I wrote to scottishhistory.com asking them why the map shows the battle at Kildean, and this is what Ewan Innes (from scottishhistory.com) said: "Based on my readings of Barrow and others, and follow up work with sources (Chronicle of Guisborough, Dunfermline Registrum as well as work with early maps of the area) I think I have the bridge sited correctly. If you look at the map (from 1896) there are four bridges. Three east of Raploch and the one by Kildean. Two of the bridges in Raploch are/were early-mid19th century and carried rail and trams across the Forth (now rail and cars). The third is the current stone bridge (marked Old Bridge). About a mile upstream at Kildean is a location marked "site of bridge". The site marked at Kildean was identifed certainly by the 19th century (I can't find my notes from the journal it's in so I can't identify it for you, but I think it's in the Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland) as being the location of a bridge over the Forth (some histories from that period identify the battle as being at Kildean bridge). In addition, the lands of Cornton on the other side of Forth are identified from at least 1218 (where they were listed as being ploughed regularly and producing oats) as being close to the west side of the causeway. Given all that, locating the bridge there rather than the area around Bridgehaugh makes sense. Moreover, the constricted nature of the Forth at Kildean makes more sense for the battle itself than at Bridgehaugh. Much as at Bannockburn, there is nowhere to go if you seal off the area around Westhaugh. At Bridgehaugh there is far more land to cover. Another consideration for siting the bridge at Kildean is the comments in Guisborough regarding the use of the fords at Drip to outflank the Scots. Guisborough has Sir Richard Lundie say that the fords were only a little way upstream from the bridge, which if you place the bridge at Kildean, is indeed acurate. I haven't seen anything new on archaeology done on any other bridge sites other than at Kildean. David, if you can identify the work in a journal - I assume Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland - I'd be happy to review it and make any changes."

Now, what I would like to know is the opinion and thoughts of other people. Do you know something more about this, do you share the same opion as David Ross, or maybe Ewan Innes? Please give me your thougths. I know, maybe you think I am crazy to make such a big deal about this, but that is my personal reason: i just want to know where exactly the battle of Stirling Bridge took place.

PS.: Sorry for my bad English. I am from Bruges (Flanders, Belgium) so I am not used to write in English... ;-)
That is also the reason why I can't do a lot of research myself. The library's here are useless if you search about Scottish history. The only book I have are "On the trail of William Wallace" by David Ross, "The Wallace" & "The Bruce trilogy" by Nigel Trantner and Blind Harry's "William Wallace".

Kind regards,
Mike Maes

[ANDY-J2]

The views of Mr.Ross,that the bridge was situated very close to the site of the current stone bridge,is what most people believe to be correct and it is true that some remains of the wooden bridge can be seen at low tide.The road leading from the current bridge bears the name Causewayhead road and I think it is generally accepted that this was the site of the narrow causeway along which the English army tried to advance.At the end of this road is the Abbey Craig where the Scots army was positioned before it advanced against the English army and it seems likely to me that the bridge was indeed situated near to the position of the modern stone bridge.After all a bridge here gives access to the centre of Stirling so why position a bridge a mile upstream outwith the boundaries of the town?

[aNonnyMoose]

I would concur with Andy. I know David Ross fairly well, and have in fact stood with him on the Abbey Craigs above the battle site whilst he explained the way the troops were laid out (from surviving accounts) and also because the landscape is moulded in such a way that what he says makes sense. I believe that a sample from one of the remaining stumps of the wooden bridge was tested dendrologically and came out at approximately the right date for the period. In my mind there's no doubt he's got it right. There's also the point (well documented) that Andrew de Moray and Wallace guided events during the battle by blowing horns from the Abbey Craig, where they had an excellent overview of the field of battle. Try standing at Abbey Craigs and imagining a battle a mile away upstream... My case rests.

[SherbrookeJacobite]

"The Battle of Stirling Bridge took place near the Old Bridge over the Forth which connects the town to the causeway leading west towards Bridge of Allan; that stone bridge, built in the late fifteenth century, replaced the ancient wooden bridge about which the battle hinged. Recent underwater research has revealed traces of massive stone piers which pinpoint the precise site of the ancient bridge which straddled the river diagonally, only a few metres upstream of the present bridge, in a straight line towards the Abbey Craig."

"SCOTLAND: THE STORY OF A NATION"
Magnus Magnusson 2000

[Patriot-Cabbie]

Originally posted by SherbrookeJacobite
"The Battle of Stirling Bridge took place near the Old Bridge over the Forth which connects the town to the causeway leading west towards Bridge of Allan; that stone bridge, built in the late fifteenth century, replaced the ancient wooden bridge about which the battle hinged. Recent underwater research has revealed traces of massive stone piers which pinpoint the precise site of the ancient bridge which straddled the river diagonally, only a few metres upstream of the present bridge, in a straight line towards the Abbey Craig."

"SCOTLAND: THE STORY OF A NATION"
Magnus Magnusson 2000

Yes I seem to recall hearing about the research carried out. They could only find one side of the structure at first as they were searching directly opposite. They then confirmed that the bridge crossed diagonally probably to give it better strenght against floods and to prevent tress and other stuff getting cuaght up on the supports.