Culloden

[ScotSites]

Originally Posted by Polwarth

Jings, zachoo flinging doon ra gauntlet tae Jacobite believers?!

That depends on what the Jacobites of today actually believe in...

[The Jacobite]

Originally Posted by ScotSites

There are quite a few people that try to keep that myth going! In my opinion they fall in to one of the following categories: people who have been fed the lie and haven't got either the inclination or even the ability to do their own research; anti-English numpties who can only see what they want and probably even believe the other myth that the Jacobite Risings were an attempt to regain independence for Scotland; and last, but not least, idiots! Actually that last category might just be a quick way to sum up the other two... I'll leave it up to the individuals concerned to select their own category; or maybe there are some out there who can actually learn something!

That's a sweeping statement.

There are some of us who have researched, understand that Charlie's motives were for the British Crown and not the Scottish (which I don't go along with), and that it wasn't an anti-English campaign.

I am very interested in that period and I have huge symapthies for the clans and their chiefs. There were some great Scots involved in the risings, Dundee, Ewan Cameron, Murray, Donald Cameron and many more. It's part of our history and whether you like it or not, it deserves a bit more respect than your statement has shown.

[ANDY-J3]

It isn't a matter of conjecture regarding his motives- his father was offered the succession to the throne before 1715 with the sole condition that he rejected catholicism which he refused to do. In 1745 Charles Stewart was only to act as regent until his father could in the event of a successful rebellion come to Britain as its new ruler ergo the sole motivation of the Stewarts was to re-establish a Catholic monarchy in Britain which would I think have been disastrous so I'm glad the Hanoverians prevailed although I don't condone their subsequent persecution of highlanders and their attempts to eradicate highland culture.

[ScotSites]

Originally Posted by The Jacobite

That's a sweeping statement.

Yes it was... against those that keep the lie (about the Risings and Culloden in particular!) being a war between Scotland and England! With that in mind, excuse me for not exactly understanding the rest of your post...

There are some of us who have researched, understand that Charlie's motives were for the British Crown and not the Scottish (which I don't go along with), and that it wasn't an anti-English campaign.

That's what I believe... and if you read my comments you'll see that's what I am saying!

I am very interested in that period and I have huge symapthies for the clans and their chiefs.

I'm not disputing this, but I will say that I have more sympathy for the clans then their chiefs... especially the way many of the chiefs treated their followers up to and during the Clearances!

There were some great Scots involved in the risings, Dundee, Ewan Cameron, Murray, Donald Cameron and many more.

I'm not disputing any of this either!

It's part of our history and whether you like it or not, it deserves a bit more respect than your statement has shown.

Who says that I don't like this being part of our (which I assume you mean Scottish!) history? All I have been saying is its not exclusively about Scotland and should never be treated as such!

So, how about you now clear up where my disrespect is... unless its the bit thats aimed at those who keep the "Scotland v England" lie going!

[The Jacobite]

Apologies if I offended you, it was not my intention.

I just felt a bit annoyed (again if I read it wrong I apologise) that all of us who follow and symapthise with the Jacobites were branded idiots. It's not a religious thing for me, I am a Scottish protestant, but I admire what the clansmen did in support of the cause. I am not a huge fan of Charlie but am of many of the men he had around him.

It's interesting that people claim that Charlie failed as a catholic monarchy wouldn't be accepted at that time and yet he gave up catholicism later in his life. Maybe if had done that earlier he may just have had more support.

I also think that people like 'Dundee' and Ewan Cameron were great Scots and if only Dundee hadn't lost his life at Killiecranckie.

As I said on another forum - I just love the 'what ifs'.

Look I apologise ScotSites for my over-reaction and possibly my misinterpretation of your post.

[ScotSites]

Originally Posted by The Jacobite

Apologies if I offended you, it was not my intention.

Its ok, I wasn't offended!

I just felt a bit annoyed (again if I read it wrong I apologise) that all of us who follow and symapthise with the Jacobites were branded idiots.

I didn't brand everyone who either sympathises or even follows the Jacobites as idiots... just those that keep the "Scotland v England" lie going!

It's interesting that people claim that Charlie failed as a catholic monarchy wouldn't be accepted at that time and yet he gave up catholicism later in his life. Maybe if had done that earlier he may just have had more support.

Maybe he would have, but that is just one of the many "what ifs"... and as you know, I like them too!

[ANDY-J3]

I've read a contemporary source from 1745- a diary written by an Edinburgh Banker called Campbell who was there at the time the Jacobites occupied the city. He states that he believed the only reason there wasn't wholesale support for the Jacobites amongst the wealthy classes in Edinburgh was the religious issue. It makes you wonder if Charles Stewart had exhibited a bit more willingness to compromise he could have turned it into a popular uprising with Scots fighting on the same side rather than fighting each other. I'm sure many more Scots including lowlanders would have fought for him if the primary goal was to re-establish Scottish independence.