English is not the same as British

[Scottish-Heart7]

Sometimes I read about being anti-English but little of being anti-british to me one is not the same as the other. I may not be an expert on Scottish and English history but it does sometimes seem to me that many people blame the English people for what a British government did or does and often make the mistake that being English means being British and yes before someone reminds me I know England is a part of Britain and therefore the English are British but I'm sure you understand the point I'm trying to make. I mean at least Scotland got to choose to be a part of Britain, Who the hell asked the English?.
It simply got forced on them. If you look through English history you soon see that the English people were put upon by the British government and English monarchy as much as the Scottish people were. The English suffered to such a degree that England as a nation is now practically non existent and any attempt by the English to restore some pride and national recognition into being English is still to this day firmly stamped on by the British government. Scotland has at least managed to keep it's identity as a nation but England is a lost nation. As I travel around Scotland I see the St. Andrew's Cross flying everywhere and rightly so, but St. George's Cross never fly's in England accept as part of football supporting which in my opinion does nothing but bring same to it.
England has been crushed from existence by Britain. Scotland may think it came of worse being in Britain but England didn't do any better. If you say to a foreigner you're Scottish, then chances are he thinks of you as from Scotland. Say to a foreigner you're English and he'll just think of you as British.
People in Scotland moan about being controlled by the British government, OK I can understand that to a point because there is just as much moaning in England about being controlled by the British government, Scotland is not alone with that one, but at least with devolution the Scottish people have some say. What say do the English get? none. You will never see an English government?. Not that there's much point arguing that out anyway, seems we will all be sold out to Europe soon.
As for Scottish independence, I don't think some think it right through. It's a nice thought but this is the world of 2004 and we have to live in the real world. To start with I doubt there is enough people in Scotland to pay for things such as Scotland's own armed forces and medical services that alone is one hell of a tax bill without the cost of all the other things currently shared with the rest of Britain being made independent. Then there is the position Britain carries in the world. I doubt whether Scotland or England on their own would hold such a position in the world as Britain does. Remember the saying "United we stand, divided we fall", its corny I know but it is true.
A much better way would be for a kind of United Countries of Britain to exist. Each country Scotland, England, Wales etc. would run their own nation raising their own taxes etc. but still stand together as Britain helping each other out and keeping our place and power in the world.
As for the monarchy, get rid. It's out dated and a total waste of money for any of the nations in Britain. Apart from that they are neither the true Scottish or English monarchy anyway but from somewhere in Europe, Can't remember where.
Anyway I got off the point a bit there. What I'm trying to say is don't blame the English people for what the British government did or does. Back in history, where so many people like to dwell. During the times of Scottish, English or British turbulence just who ran England?, It was the monarchy and the aristocracy. Their the ones to blame for all the trouble back then. Do you think the English peasant out in the fields gave a damn about if such and such a king ruled England, Scotland or even France come to that. He didn't give a bugger. It's all down to the monarchy and the aristocracy being greedy for money and power. The peasant just had to go and fight where he was told to because if not he'd loose his land, home and probably his life.
So to anyone with anti-English views please stop blaming the English. The average Englishman had sod all to do with any of it. It's time to stop living in the past and get on with the future. After all do the people of the highlands still hate the people of the lowlands because they sided with those south of the border ?
Right now I've got that off my chest I guess I'll answer the question on everyone's mind. Yes I am what you would call English. That being that I was born in England and do presently live in England. However my family roots are very much Scottish. My ancestor's marched with Bonnie Prince Charles in the '45 and fought and died at Culloden amongst other battles, being forced out of Scotland by fellow Scott's in the early 1800s during the clearances. They then came to rest in North Yorkshire only to suffer from the clearances there and ended up in South Yorkshire where my grandfather was born.
So whether that makes me English, Scottish or part both I don't know. But I do know this by the end of this year I will be living in the Highlands, once again returning my family to it's true home. There I will be living, working and joining in with the community. I doubt I will have much trouble as I have already spent much time in the highlands and find the people to be warm, welcoming, intelligent and living in the present and not the past. But I dare say by some I will be seen as being another bloody Englishman and I have no intention of justifying my right to live in Scotland by reeling off my families past to some narrow minded fool. People will have to take me as I am. An Englishman born with a Scottish heart and in Scotland that heart will remain beating strong and true.
Question is though, will Scotland welcome me back ? or am I just another bloody Englishman.

[Madpiper2003]

hello there,

The trouble that happened in the centuries gone by are without a doubt the result in the greed of one man.. Edward Longshanks.

We "the scottish" know that there were probably the heavy hand of the monarchy on the English. but even nowadays, if a scottishman goes down to say, London, we are looked upon as not being the average person.(This is how I felt after one week).

To respond about scotland standing alone and not being able to make it. Well, if all resouces were left in charge of the scottish people, then we probably could stand and grow to be a country in our own right. But that's not going to happen.. Look at the whisky trade, wool, beef, oil, etc.. I'm thinking there's a lot come's/came out of scotland.

To answer your question about you being just another "Englishman" as you put it.. I'm sure that people take people for who they are, and will welcome you to scotland if you want to be here. But then again, I can only speak for myself as to what I would be like.

[Scottish_Republican]

The English have been referring to themselves exclusively as "British" since the 1300s (e.g. William Langland).

Most of the world equates British with English, as do most of the English. Only a handful of Scots, Irish & Welsh who want their countries to remain annexed make a big deal about it.

"I mean at least Scotland got to choose to be a part of Britain"

No it didn't. I presume you're talking about 1707, if so you'd be far wrong. 0.01% of the population had the vote, and the parliamentary members were bribed and threatened into voting the "right way"... and even after all that, this undemocratic parliament voted narrowly in favour of it. It was an event which had more in common with Hitler's Anschluss of Austria than democratic choice.

You're also wrong about the St George's cross. Some English do fly it. I would like to see more do so.

"England has been crushed from existence by Britain."

Right. Is English a minority language? Did it have its capital removed to another country?

"My ancestor's marched with Bonnie Prince Charles in the '45"

Bonnie Prince Charlie was after the Throne of England too. It is debatable whether he wanted Scottish independence.

p.s. Why are you posting this on the history forum? "Politics" would be more suitable.

[Scottish-Heart7]

Strange you should have trouble in London, I to have spent time there and dispite being English I was regarded as a country bumpkin from up north even though I was not from what England regards as the north but from the Midlands, but then I seem to get the impression Londoners only like Londoners and I'll never go back there.
The point I was trying to get across is I don't see why today there is so much anti English comments when its a British Government that runs the things and not an English one. OK you could blame the English ruling class of the time for some things in the past but that's the past, we should remember it but not live in it. Apart from that my ancestors were knocking the hell out of the English back then as well. Many English People would consider themselves today oppressed by the British Government as well. It seems all they care about is the south east and the rest don't count.
I personally would love to see Scotland go it alone as I would England but I doubt any British country would achieve true independence now days with the European Union about.

[Scottish_Republican]

But it is the English parliament.

The Scottish parliament with its three estates system contributed nothing at all to the design of Westminster, let alone Wales or Ireland. The Church of England plays the central role int he ceremonies, despite the fact it has no official status north of the border.

All that happened is that the old English parliament got expanded. And it is still English by a vast majority.

It is the English parliament continuing.

[misslarue]

Originally posted by Scottish_Republican
But it is the English parliament.

The Scottish parliament with its three estates system contributed nothing at all to the design of Westminster, let alone Wales or Ireland. The Church of England plays the central role int he ceremonies, despite the fact it has no official status north of the border.

All that happened is that the old English parliament got expanded. And it is still English by a vast majority.

It is the English parliament continuing.

It is far from an English parliament. The Westminster Parliament is the UK Parliament, containing MPs from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England.

Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland can represent the whole of the UK at Brussels. Neither England as a whole, nor its proposed regions can do this.

In the House of Commons, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs can vote on purely English affairs and affect what happens to England, but English MPs are prohibited from voting on matters purely affecting their countries.
English MPs are not entitled to vote on matters affecting Scotland or Wales.

In May 2003 Scottish Labour MPs voted in favour of foundation hospitals in England despite the fact that the Scottish Labour Party had rejected them for Scotland where English representatives have no say.

In England there are fewer MPs per head of population than in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

Despite having achieved devolution, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland still have special ministers in the UK government dedicated to furthering their interests. England has none. The Scottish Office, Welsh Office and Northern Irish Office are charged with ensuring that their respective nations’ interests are represented within the UK.
England as England has no representation in the Westminster Parliament.

How is this the English parliament continuing?????????

[Scottish_Republican]

"It is far from an English parliament. The Westminster Parliament is the UK Parliament, containing MPs from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England."

#1) It has an inbuilt English majority (it would be undemocratic otherwise).

#2) It is the same pre-Union parliament expanded. It owes NOTHING to the Scots parliament at all. Not even constituencies, but continued what was already there before the union.

"In the House of Commons, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs can vote on purely English affairs and affect what happens to England, but English MPs are prohibited from voting on matters purely affecting their countries."

Untrue. English MPs still attend Scottish question time, and also control a number of purely Scottish matters, such as broadcasting (which even when specifically Scottish or Welsh comes under Westminster).

"England as England has no representation in the Westminster Parliament."

Oh but it does. Like being able to vote down all the rest. Remember Scotland and Wales' famous love of the Tories? Didn't stop them getting in power did it?

"In England there are fewer MPs per head of population than in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. "

That's the fatal flaw of the "UK", and what will kill it. Perhaps it serves it right for invading (Ireland, Wales) and annexing (Scotland) various countries.