Duncan,MacBeth and Canmore

[Skyelander]

Originally posted by Polwarth
And, by the way, historically, in the UK we use ROMAN numerals when numbering our kings/queen - ie Duncan III, not Duncan 111 as you continually post. Surely a real 'historian' like yourself would know that?

Why don't you go and try to impress some other less gullible people than the posters on here? [/b]

I won't be so forceful in my response as this, but I agree that those who've studied history, as I have, should know that a royal designation is Roman numerals, and not a collective of 1's or 2's. I'm unsure how you are educating us with this since it seems, at least so far, to be a conjecture. The first I've ever read of the rampant lion as a royal symbol was by William, not Malcolm.

[Polwarth]

The reason that I am being 'forceful' is that this poster has been trying to 'educate' us Scots for a long while now... As far as we can tell, his/her grasp on Scots history is tenuous at best, and knowledge of the British (not just Scots) hall-mark system is also a little skewed.

[Sakhu]

If you think I'm a fool, that's fine with me. In the meantime, I'll be laughing all the way to the bank. The link below gives some backgound into the discovery of the silver treasure behind the wainscot of the "Cabinet" where King James V1 of Scotland was born. Mary Queen of Scots gave birth inside a silver cabinet, and this is why the tiny room where King James V1, later James 1 of England was called the "Cabinet", because it's simply short for silver cabinet.
The Englishman who I've talked about in other post imigrated with some of the silver to America in l951. He employed the Japanese to help him smuggle other parts of the silver into the U.S.A. They did this because the orders went to Japan. The Japanese held on to some of the real silver items for reproduction. However, they set up shop during the mid l950 on American bases. The U.S. military under General McAurther were in Japan to help a failing post war economy by purchasing Japanese goods. An associate of the reproduction company sold some of the silver on American base PX to a Captain. The captain thought he was doing his duty and buying up Japanese silver. He never bothered to fully examine the hallmark, thinking it was in japanese anyway. He sold the Captain 2 cases of goblets with the mark of the son which protect the true identy of the father and son royal silversmiths. Some 47 years later I brought the silver directly off the Captain.

Some of the silver artifacts were sold as copies through their advertising. The company gave false identities to the silver claiming the originals were done by world famous 19th century London silversmiths, Digby Scott and Ben Smith, On another claim he made that it was done by London Silversmith, Charles Fox on the occassion of Queen Victoria's wedding in 1845. He sold the idea to merchants who in the California area brought the molds to manufacture the silver themselves. The Stupid merchants took his story as fact and begun selling the silver as it was discribed to them. They never bothered to look up the real year Victoria married Prince Albert, 1840. Furthermore, Victoria and Albert museum already took a look at the silver and said in no way can the silver have been created by Charles Fox in Queen Victoria's time. They would be the authority on both Charles Fox, Digby Scot, and Ben Smith.
The museum also did research for me to look up the handwriting of both George and Henry Elkington to see if either of them shown evidence they could write in that beautiful script. The original script. They research by reviewing books, and microfilms, ledgers, notes, the museum's researcher turned up no evidence that Henry or George Elkington ever wrote in that beautiful calligraphy. therefore, concluding they must have taken the marks from another source. That source being the letters (hallmarks) from the Royal silver collection, brought to them by the Edinburgh Castle Garrison. Furthermore, don't forget the history of electroplate. George and Henry took 10 years between 1830 to 1840 before they finally realized success in their experiments.
Electroplate got it's name from the EP in fine Calligraphy on the silver, who was the Edinburgh assay master. There had been a great cover-up in history, regarding the discovery of the silver and gold treasure begind the wainscotting of the "Cabinet". The cover-up in a way protected the silver from being melted down, and used for coinage. After all, 1830, was a time Roman Catholics were still in danger, there artifacts faced great danger in the 19th century. So technically, the English Garrison did the Scots a favor by stealing and reproducing the Royal silver artifacts, as this mass reproduction created a certain look that the real silver would be protected among the fake silver until the time when it was safe to come out of the closet. These are the silver articles of the Saints of Scotland, and they survived for a very devine purpose.
The time will be right when the news finally breaks. I am watching politics in Britain, the news on the Royal family, etc. I must be thoughtful in any press coverage regarding the story of the silver. The silver also shows that hallmarking laws were not an idea of the English, but of the Scots, to protect the King of Scots, Malcolm 111 from being cheated.
the English only seperated the marks after the acceptance of Christianity. This is because the marks as the scots had them meant death to all regardless of guilt.
The seperation of marks gave a fairer chance to the innocent, and the English done away with the death sentence eventually, but the Scots took until the 1700's to do away with the death sentence for cheating by silversmiths.
Eventually, they followed the Christian ways with the English, and United as One nation under King James 1.

This is the link, there are other links on this story to be found on the web.

http://terwin.home.texas.net/scot-mystery.html

I don't know who put up the link.

[Sakhu]

I want to thank, a Nonny Moose, very much for that information.


"You're on pretty dodgy ground here. The first reference to hallmarks in 'Britain' was over 700 years ago in the year 1300 by a statute from the English monarch King Edward 1, and the first mention of hall marking in Scotland some 600 years ago. An assay office was set up in Edinburgh some 500 years ago and is currently under threat:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=555652003

I don't suppose this is in any way connected with your collection of silver teapots is it?"

I've been in touch with Walter Scott over two years ago, and he connected me with a silver historian, Scottish knight, Henry Stewart Fothringham, OBE in Edinburgh who I've been corresponding to for a couple years now. I even have his personal phone number and address. Henry told me that if the items test positive for for silver then they have to go back before 1457. Well, guest what? They did on several items, and one item a silver cup from the 1300's with the hallmark of Edinburgh has been valued at $100,000 dollars. About twice as much in British pounds. This item is not related to Saint Margaret, but probably made for a decendent, at the end of the Canmore rule.

Actually, the silver is probably what will save the Edinburgh assay office from closing. I will be calling them to give Mr Scott the news shortly to fight closure. I agree with him that the take over will lead to desaster.
Edinburgh Assay office is actually the oldest consumer protection agency in Great Britain, and around the world. The assay through the American assay office, owned and operated by the Birmingham England assay office with prove this. And they as well at the Birmingham assay office knows about the silver, and the story. They are waiting patiently for my trip to New York City, which I was suppose to make in Aug 2004. But now postponed until Jan. or Feb of 2005. Christies Auction House wrote that they will do a free appraisial on the artifacts for the sale to the National Museum of Scotland, and the British museum. I'm waiting on Lloyds of London to cover insurance on the silver artifacts.
Anyway, Thank You A Nonny Moose for alerting me to the closure of the Edinburgh office, Now I must do all I can to save this piece of Scotland's history, and people's jobs.

[Sakhu]

I called Mr. Scot Walter today, spoke for 5 minutes. He told me not to worry. That was old news. They won their arguments against the EU closing. The hallmarking laws will remain the same, and all the offices in Britain and NYC will stay open.
Caused a panic attack though.