ARE americans reallyTHAT obvious

[Scottish_Republican]

"I don't identify with Spain Scottish. We are not Spanish in culture."

Neither do many of what you call "Anglos" identify with England.

Yet Spanish culture is a massive influence upon the Americas as a whole, from the very language to certain ranching techniques, to religion etc. Spanish culture is as much European as Anglo... although of course there was substantial Moorish influence on it, and I've heard that Spanish in the Americas has tended to come out of the south west, Andalucia etc.

Puerto Rico, despite having as much a mix of culture as anywhere else, still has a Spanish name.

"And Cameron doesn't speak Spanish."

I don't know her background, but with a name like "Diaz" many people out there would picture her as having dark hair, and brown eyes. I think her first name was originally "Camerone", I'm not 100% sure on that one, but if so she anglicised it to "Cameron".

[Scottish_Republican]

Originally posted by hilandr
With all due respect, PR girl,..all Puerto Ricans have to do is vote a referendum to have their "independent" country,..or to become a U.S. state. They have chosen to remain neither. They have chosen to remain a territory and "protectorate". And you do vote for your own local government officials and you do have representation in the U.S. congress,..as does the Virgin Islands. Could it be that you like all the benefits of U.S. citizenship, without the taxation and all that goes with it? There must be some reason...? (wink)

As a Scot, I've heard this argument before.

I don't believe it is that easy for the PRs unfortunately.

There are ways and means they can gain independence, but guaranteed there are dirty tricks the Unionist community can get up to. I can tell you that without even knowing that much about PR politics. These kinds of situations often have a lot in common with each other throughout the world.

I think the original aim would have been to fill it up with settlers, and turn it into a state, as happened with Hawaii, Texas etc. However, PR hasn't gone down that road, and I'm told a considerable minority knows no English, which frightens certain lobbies within the federal government.

[PRgirl]

Originally posted by Scottish_Republican

As a Scot, I've heard this argument before.

PRgirl: Yes, Scottish I have heard all the bull arguments before. Most people from the USA don't understand colonialism and how a supposed democratic republic engaged in naked Imperialism near the end of the 19th century in their manifest destiny stage. People still think gov't policy towards 'unincorporated territories is about equality justice and the American way.' It isn't it is about geo-political interests and economic interests. It has always been about that. And the USA is not different in Imperial ways. Imperial ways are the same all over the world. Whether it is the Spanish crown, the Union Jack Empire or the Yankee Doodle Empire. It is all the same. What I find interesting is how much denial is lived with, when the myth is not the reality. I deal with the reality of political and socioeconomic situations not the MYTH. I think you deal with it too. It is obvious. If you didn't you wouldn't be a Scottish Republican, you would be a Unionist. Lol.

I don't believe it is that easy for the PRs unfortunately.

There are ways and means they can gain independence, but guaranteed there are dirty tricks the Unionist community can get up to. I can tell you that without even knowing that much about PR politics. These kinds of situations often have a lot in common with each other throughout the world.

PRgirl: I whole heartedly agree Senor Escoses. I truly do. And you are so right. The dirty tricks from the Unionists have been full blown on the island. And they are the same throughout the world.

I think the original aim would have been to fill it up with settlers, and turn it into a state, as happened with Hawaii, Texas etc. However, PR hasn't gone down that road, and I'm told a considerable minority knows no English, which frightens certain lobbies within the federal government.

PRgirl: But, because of our Ancient "relative" history in the New World, we weren't some empty quarter like Texas or Hawaii. We never have been. Borinquen aka Puerto Rico has never been empty. And now even less so. No room for settlers we have some of the highest population densities in the world and our water, electiricity and so on services are bursting at the seams as it is. Aint no new conquerers going to be able to invade and kick out. The only kicking out recently done on the island has been the Puerto Ricans vs. The USA Navy. And the Navy lost. After occupying the land for 60+ years. The locals voted them off. The Navy did not respect the vote (why did that not surprise me)? And then the protests and the pressures and the hassles. And finally they moved out. Now they closed a huge military base on the island too. Even the tiny islands like Vieques, who are about 8 miles long in size, have thousands of people local people on them and they aint moving. They aren't giving it up. And so the settler tactics of old aren't gonna work Scottish Republican. ANd the illegal immigrants in PR are not English speaking. They come from Castro's Cuba and speak Spanish too. And the Dominincan Republic another Spanish speaking island. Our immigrants are also ex colonies of Spain. The English speaking Americans aren't moving there. They have condos and vacation there. But they feel 'put out' by having to forcibly learn Spanish to get anything done. And they can't compete for white collar jobs with trilingual and bilingual Puerto Ricans like myself. Lol. We are the white collar Puerto Ricans who speak and read and write English, Spanish, and French or Japanese, have degrees, connections and family and are willing to get paid crap $16,000 a year to live on the island. They are not. They can make more money on the mainland and be some unilingual types and avoid the hassles of learning sometimes more than just Spanish and English. Here you got Haitians, Martinique, Guadaloupe and other islands speaking French and tourists from Germany, France, UK, Danes, Venezuelans and Canadians and USA people tourists and being some foolish USA English only type aint gonna get you a half way decent job. NO way. So, the reconquering in that empty land bull concept from the Old West days aint gonna work. And it is complicated the problems. Always have been complicated. I think your average PR politician can grasp so many political problems so much better on a world wide scale than the people on the mainland. They live in bubbles over there, in which the powerful can afford to not think about a lot of stuff.

[PRgirl]

Originally posted by Scottish_Republican
"I don't identify with Spain Scottish. We are not Spanish in culture."

Neither do many of what you call "Anglos" identify with England.

PRgirl: You are right the Anglos in the USA, don't identify with England. They are the underclass, the working class and the middle class and the ruling class, in other words they are just like the other "Americans" a hodgepodge of traditions and so on composed of many peoples and cultures and deeply ignorant as well of where they get many of their traditions and ways. That is why it is hard for me to understand why such a country like the USA who never liked monarchical structures, class conscious setups and being an ex-colony as well can condone and bull**** their way into justifying engaging in the same behavior they supposedly deplore on the Latin Americans and others. It is deeply hipocritical as a democratic supposed Republic to act that way. They got historical problems. And they need to be confronted with their inherent contradictions between theory and practice or fall into the same mistakes as the faded mighty Empires of Europe like the UK and France and Spain. Somehow maybe they think historical problems and its consequences doesn't apply to them? If so they are sadly mistaken. Those problems are human not circumscribed to nationality or labels. It is systemic in nature. THe problems.

Yet Spanish culture is a massive influence upon the Americas as a whole, from the very language to certain ranching techniques, to religion etc. Spanish culture is as much European as Anglo... although of course there was substantial Moorish influence on it, and I've heard that Spanish in the Americas has tended to come out of the south west, Andalucia etc.

PRgirl: Spanish culture has influenced the Americas. Of course. But, the way it has 'evolved' in the Americas is unique, and there were massive amounts of Indigenous civilizations in the Americas and the Spanish crown followed Roman Catholic ways of coping. Not Protestant ways. In contrast to the "Pilgrims" and the Mayflower for the USA and the 13 original colonies in which whole families moved as a unit to the new colonies and women from England and Germany and etc. moved to the new colonies to repopulate the land, in the Americas, women were scarce and the Spanish men who stayed in the New World had kids en masse with the Indigenous and the African slave women and their children were not born into slavery but were free even if their mothers were not. This not only caused racial miscegenation as the norm, (especially for the lower classes), but the 'native' culture of the Latin American nations were not a mom and dad with the same language and same tradition and same racial composition, but the mother was either Indigenous and or African and the father a Spaniard with Roman Catholic duties of baptism of the children or child. Lol. Oh Scottish, I think of my family history when I think of those wiley Spaniards. My great great grandfather was a Blonde blue eyed Spaniard and he married my great great grandmother a free African woman with a mother who was a Taino indian and an African freeman husband. She had 17 living children with the Spaniard and adopted 4 others from another African woman who came to help her with the massive chores on the coffee and banana farm in those emerald tropical hills from that little town. Lol. The Spaniard was not some Calvinist protestant refusing to have 'legitimate' children with African women and marrying his European wife and having two bloodlines. One recognized and one denied a la Thomas Jefferson with Sally Hemmings and so on. That kind of denial and racism that went on until the 1860's in the Southern parts of the United States was not our history. OUr history are a bunch of Spaniards who give their last names to the kids from the 'dark' races, never really get married to the women cuz preists were scarce in them there parts, and never were stupid enough to don white sheets in the night to go harass the people that looked like their own children Juanito and Maria. Lol. Sure there was classism Scottish. But the entire history is different. And the people culturally are who they are and Old Spain is not really the core cultures. As I like to say, you scratch a Puerto Rican deep enough past the Spanish language and the real soul is "AFRICAN". You scratch the surface of a Mexican and you shall find "Aztec and Mayan" and Indian through and through in their soul. Maybe it doesn't sound scientific Scottish, but it makes sense to me. It does. Europe is complex. But it is far away. And has other influences. The Americas has other soul deep roots.

Puerto Rico, despite having as much a mix of culture as anywhere else, still has a Spanish name.

PRgirl: Funny name Scottish it has. Puerto Rico was originally the name of the city. It means "Rich Port"in Spanish. The island's official name was San Juan Bautista. St. John the Baptist. Over the centuries the city name became the island name and the island name became the city. San Juan now is the name of the capital, and Puerto Rico the name of the island. The flip flop is a historical fact. And it is not some Ketchup Kerry flip flop. The Taino name though is what we call ourselves. Boricuas. It comes from Borinquen or as it said in the Taino Indian language "Boriken" which means "Land of the Noble Lord." Yuracan or now known as "hurricane" was the God of wrath and anger and Yukiyu the God of light and beauty and abundance. The West African slaves mostly Mandinkas, and other tribes from what is now presently known as Yorubaland in Nigeria were the main slave imports. They left the plantations in steady amounts since Puerto Rico is 3/4ths hills and mountains with at the time a substantial rain forest with extremely thick vegetations, and abundant water and streams. The terrain was rugged and difficult and perfect to flee from the Spanish law enforcement types. Also if you were a gold digging Spaniard Puerto Rico is not for you. Got to hit Peru and Mexico for that. Puerto Rico was good for Spain to resupply her ships filled with Mexican gold and silver, and as some backwater Caribbean outpost for water and food and a good harbor to pick up the needed ballast and such, but it was not a mecca for the top dogs in Spanish colonial Empire building. Therefore the Spanish crown sent the 'undesireables' to Puerto Rico. Who where they? The not orthodox ones. The dubious Southern region types. The mozarabes, the extramadura types, the Andalucians, with their Moorish and gypsy theiving ways, and the Canary Islanders off the coast of Africa with their lack of respect for law and order along with the Corsicans and other less than respectable types. Lol. I find it quite a colorful crew. And it is all in my family. All of them dirt poor and mixing under a warm climate and gorgeous beaches, and a lot of struggle. Now Scottish if you can tell me the Scottish Gaelic history with and their ways, I would highly enjoy that as well. It seems to me that Scotland has had a lot of troubles over the centuries as well.


"And Cameron doesn't speak Spanish."

I don't know her background, but with a name like "Diaz" many people out there would picture her as having dark hair, and brown eyes. I think her first name was originally "Camerone", I'm not 100% sure on that one, but if so she anglicised it to "Cameron".

PRgirl: I do think Ms. Diaz father is Cuban. Her mother is Irish American I believe. And she loves her Spanish speaking Cuban granny a whole lot who resides in Florida or died recently. And you would be surprised Scottish, many Puerto Ricans look very "white" but you search their DNA codes and they got all kinds of races in there. They do. My mother's sister has light brown hair, green eyes, super white skin, and an African looking nose, those full Yoruban lips and quite a loud sounding Spanish vocabulary. Lol. I don't think stereotypes are good for trying to typecast people. At least for us.

[Skyelander]

This is an interesting debate, but what does it have to do with Scottish history?

If Americans are louder and seem to get more attention in the classrooms - then all the Scots have to do is speak louder. I know they we have a hard time with that in person, but obviously not so on forums!

[Scottish_Republican]

There's a few reasons why you encounter so many Americans, one is simply that there's a lot more of them online than people from other countries.

[PRgirl]

Scottish Republican,
I am interested in Celtic history and in Scottish history. I know the Church of England was founded by Henry VIII in his attempts to divorce the first wife the die hard Roman Catholic daughter of the Spanish monarchy. And now you say in the other ORangemen thread that the Church of Scotland is Presbyterian and the biggest church membership in Scotland but that only Scottish women go? Well, at least it isn't televangelist types. So, what shaped Scottish history the most in your opinion Scottish Republican?

I must say I like everything about Irish culture. Scottish culture I am less familiar with. But, I am hoping you will fill me in on the holes (the big ones I have about it). Scottish it is most probable I will never go there and so I hope you shall describe what you can about it and I can learn about it on this board. You certainly are fun to read. I hope I didn't talk too much about my little island's troubles. Lol. I am not monothematic and can write about many things with others I think. Lol. WINK. Me caes bien Escoses Republicano. You do. Even though I know you don't know much about my region, we are even. I don't know much about Scotland and we can learn can't we?