100 Greatest Britons

[Steaphan]

Originally posted by ANDY-J2
Certainly his name is linked with many atrocities such as Drogheda but you would struggle to find any convincing evidence which proves he deliberately set out to slaughter innocent people."

You just have! Thank you very much - Drogheda, a fine example, Andy!


"He did a great service to Britain as a whole inasmuchas he played a key role in challenging the idea that monarchs could rule by divine right and that their will took precedence over the will of parliament and the people of Britain."



Ahem, Andy, in Scotland 300 years prior to Cromwell, this idea was challenged in the declaration of Arbroath, which stated that should the monarch follow a path against the wishes of the people, then the people had the right to rise up and depose the monarch and appoint a new one who would safeguard the interests of them and the nation! Also,when Cromwell was alive there was no such thing as one parliament for the whole of Britain as Scotland was still independent. He showed his contempt for democracy when he invaded and tried to subjugate Scotland in the interests of England's imperialistic and ethnicidal policies. Cromwell is about as great as a sun-dried faece.



"He established the foundations of liberal parliamentary democracy which is now the form of government used by many countries throughout the world and is arguably one of the reasons why this country attained greatness.He established once and for all the principle that parliament and the people,not the monarch held ultimate sovereignty."

That's all well and good, but this hardly made England more democratic, considering most of the members of the Parliament were aristocrats and related to their royal family.


Compare what happened in Britain with the situation in France where absolute monarchy eventually led to revolution,anarchy and bloodshed.Had the Stewarts prevailed then absolutism would have created the same problems in this country and Crommwell played a key role in ensuring that this was prevented.I think he was guided by a real conviction that he was doing what was

"in the interests of the country."
What country? Scotland still had an independent parliament at this stage.

I think some of your points here are valid...for England, maybe you should join England.com? What do you think?


"If I had been asked for my top twenty I would certainly have included Burns but while I enjoy reading Burn's work I happen to prefer reading Shakespeare.

I'm glad you like Burns, I do too, but if you prefer reading Shakespeare then you are missing the point of what his writing was about. I think Shakespeare would have been aghast that you place more importance on reading his plays than seeing them performed on the stage! Similarly, with Burns much of his work is enjoyable to read, but I'd much rather hear people performing his songs, and hearing his poetry read aloud than just reading them from the page.

Mines would be as follows

1 Kenny Dalglish
2 William Wallace
3 Rob Roy McGregor
4 James Connely
5 Alexander Graham Bell
6 John Logie Baird
7 Robert Burns
8 Alex Salmond
9 Billy Connely
10 GavinHastings

A couple of years ago a discussion list I was on was trying to come up with the most influential Scot of the past millennium and reached the conclusion that it was John Knox. No-one has mentioned him here yet... except me just now, of course!

[ANDY-J2]

Steaphan,
Drogheda was one particularly brutal episode in a protracted and bloody civil war in Ireland.Catholic and Protestant fought on both sides.English,Scots and Irish fought against each other.While the widespread perception is that Cromwell was responsible for the massacre at Drogheda in fact there is not any reliable textual evidence which could lay the blame upon him-or perhaps you know different?Scotland certainly had it's own parliament prior to the civil wars however it was anything but democratic and was in need of reform.Extreme Calvinist clerics wielded the real power in this country at that time and in fact it was interference from these very clerics which handed victory on a plate to Cromwell at the battle of Dunbar.Obviously your assertion that he "tried to subjagate Scotland in the interests of England's imperialistic and ethnicidal policies" is nonsense.He was motivated by religious ideals up to a point but above all else he was motivated by a desire to overthrow the tyranny of Stewart absolutism.As I stated previously Cromwell laid the foundations for parliamentary democracy to emerge in Britain-that is not to say that he created democracy overnight.He was responsible however for creating the conditions of political and religious tolerance which allowed Britain to become a world power.Cromwell was a man ahead of his time.He saw that it was pointless to have a union of the crowns without formal political union and it was the phenomena of three seperate kingdoms pulling in seperate directions which was one of the main causes of the civil wars.Cromwell saw unification as a means of ensuring lasting peace and there is no doubt that he was one of the truly great figures in Britain's history.There is no reason for me to join England.com as I am a patriotic Scot.I approach the study of Scotland's history objectively which is why I'm aware that much of our past is less glorious than we often like to admit.I don't have any need to rewrite history to fit in with what I would like to imagine were true.I don't see Scotland as a poor little nation who throughout history has been the victim of some nasty English conspiracy.Although I am a supporter of independence I am not blinkered by prejudice like some nationalists and I believe that we enjoy freedom and democracy in this country today because of people such as Cromwell and Elizabeth I and I have no qualms about stating that just because they happen to be English.

[Monco]

Originally posted by Neil_Caple
A couple of years ago a discussion list I was on was trying to come up with the most influential Scot of the past millennium and reached the conclusion that it was John Knox. No-one has mentioned him here yet... except me just now, of course!

He would certainly be a candidate for a Great Scots list, though his fanaticism and intolerance would get up the noses of the trendy liberal brigade.

His vision of parish schools for all was instrumental in making Scotland the first educated and literate nation in the world, even though it wasn't realised until long after his death. But I think this ended up being a blessing and a curse, for it gave Scots the edge over other people in America and the British Empire, but didn't really benefit the nation as much.

However historians have tended to downgrade Knox's contribution. He was generally regarded as having written himself a bigger contribution than he actually made.

I think it can fairly be said that no-one did more to shape the national character of the Scots than Knox and that was why the group I mentioned concluded he was the most influential Scot of the last millennium.

There is no doubt he was a great self-publicist and he wasn't the only major influence on Reformation Scotland, but he's the one who had the foresight to write it all down for posterity.

[Steaphan]

Originally posted by Neil_Caple
I think it can fairly be said that no-one did more to shape the national character of the Scots than Knox

If bigotry is part of our national character then you're probably right!