cake help?

[Polwarth]

Kathy
We have

Madeira
Sponge
Dundee
Fruit Cake
Clootie dumplings
.... and LOADS more cakes!

You obviously weren't looking in the correct places!

[HollyElise]

Originally Posted by Polwarth

Hmmmmm ! I've never actually made an Angel food cake - and have never made any tye of cake with only egg whites... so in this case, you have me stumped

It's also difficult to 'translate' the American measurements. We use either lb and oz or grammes and kg and litres!

Actually, Polwarth, Angelfood cake is different from white cake as it has no butter or oil in it at all, and usually uses from 12 to 16 egg whites!!! You beat them until not only stiff but "dry." My mom used to make angelfood all the time, and i made one once. It's actually quite similar to making a souffle... only you need a special pan with a cone cutout in the center (sort of like a Bundt pan only tall), and when you cool it, you cool it upside-down in the pan, balanced over a bottle... strange, hunh? But this is what helps keep it so light and spongy.

If you are willing to share any recipe you like i will translate it.

[HollyElise]

Originally Posted by kathyv

Holly, you can get clear vanilla at a cake decorating shop or the Wilton catalog. This works to keep your whites pure in cake and in white icing. Have you experimented with an oil based cake for lightness like a chiffon cake? The trick with them is to keep beating the egg white so much that you go past the gloss stage in them.

An angle food cake uses 12 egg whites beaten stiff with a simple syrup beaten in for sweetening.

Usually a sponge cake in the States is a cake that doesn't have egg whites, the leavening is beaten egg yolk and won't have anything like baking soda or baking powder in it.

I can't remember seeing anything in the UK that I would have thought of as cake. . . but then, why bother with a common cake when you can have all the shortbread you want? heeheehee

hahahaha Kathy!

When i did the yellow cake and beat the egg whites to stiff peaks and folded them in, but it still turned out dense. I didn't try oil and i was wondering about that! ...but... can you answer for me my question as to thickness of batter? With my chocolate cake that i tweaked until i absolutely love it... the batter is thinner than pancake batter, but thicker than crepe batter, capiche? But in the yellow cake recipe i was following, the batter came out thick like brownies, and that just didn't seem right, so i added more milk before i folded in the egg whites. (I should have said i halved the recipe, too). Thicker batters usually give denser cakes, don't they? (That is, assuming it doesn't get so thin it falls).

One of the things i do with my chocolate cake recipe is i add a little vinegar to the batter. You don't taste the vinegar, but the acid helps the baking soda activate better so it makes the cake lighter. I thought of trying this with a white cake, but i didn't know if without the chocolate i might taste it. But i used to do it with my muffins when i worked at the bakery, and i never remember tasting it then, only getting nice, light, muffins. Buttermilk or sour milk can be used likewise.

...and yes, i have a large bottle of the "white vanilla" which is clear... but actually i was going to make my own vanilla too... have you done that? You need Vodka, two vanilla bean halved lengthwise, and then you store it in a dark place for about 3 weeks.

[HollyElise]

Okay, here we go! This is from the Fannie Farmer Baking Book:

KINDS OF CAKES

Basically, there are two kinds of cakes: those with fat (usually butter, vegetable shortening, or oil) and those made without. Foam cakes, made from light, frothy batters and leavened by beaten whole eggs or egg whites, can fall into either category.

The cakes we see most often -- white, yellow, and chocolate layer cakes, sheet cakes, pound cakes and other loaf cakes, upside-down cakes, chiffon cakes, fruitcakes, spiced cakes, and cupcakes -- usually are made with vegetable shortening and almost always depend on baking poweder or baking soda for leavening.

Fat acts as padding for cakes, just as it does for people, adding weight and density. Cakes made without shortening are lightest because they have no added fat. The most familiar cakes in this group are angel food and true sponge cakes, which are leavened entirely by beaten eggs and/or egg whites. You need only one bite of a good angel cake, snowy white and light as a cloud, to know why it's considered food for the heavens...."

Then it goes on to talk about Genoise, Chiffon cakes, and Tortes or Torten. There is also some good information about beating the eggs, preparing the pans, how different fats behave, etc. I guess that answers the question of why my yellow cake was so heavy, because there was a lot of butter in it! But i'm still wondering about the thickness of batter...

[kathyv]

Originally Posted by HollyElise

hahahaha Kathy!

When i did the yellow cake and beat the egg whites to stiff peaks and folded them in, but it still turned out dense. I didn't try oil and i was wondering about that! ...but... can you answer for me my question as to thickness of batter? With my chocolate cake that i tweaked until i absolutely love it... the batter is thinner than pancake batter, but thicker than crepe batter, capiche? But in the yellow cake recipe i was following, the batter came out thick like brownies, and that just didn't seem right, so i added more milk before i folded in the egg whites. (I should have said i halved the recipe, too). Thicker batters usually give denser cakes, don't they? (That is, assuming it doesn't get so thin it falls).

One of the things i do with my chocolate cake recipe is i add a little vinegar to the batter. You don't taste the vinegar, but the acid helps the baking soda activate better so it makes the cake lighter. I thought of trying this with a white cake, but i didn't know if without the chocolate i might taste it. But i used to do it with my muffins when i worked at the bakery, and i never remember tasting it then, only getting nice, light, muffins. Buttermilk or sour milk can be used likewise.

...and yes, i have a large bottle of the "white vanilla" which is clear... but actually i was going to make my own vanilla too... have you done that? You need Vodka, two vanilla bean halved lengthwise, and then you store it in a dark place for about 3 weeks.

I wonder if you increased the oil and egg white for your yellow cake rather than the milk if it wouldn't come out a thinner batter? You are right about thicker batters=denser cakes, but I would experiment with lightening it with a different liquid, and maybe increasing the baking soda. You could try to use white vinegar, I don't think a little would affect the taste, I put a bit of vinegar in my pastry crust as it helps to lighten that a bit. I expect it should work with a white cake as well? You could also try using mayonnaise rather than oil and eggs, I know mayo cakes are usually chocolate but I imagine it could work for a white/yellow one, too. What do you think? Maybe omitting the cocoa and increasing that much in cake flour? OH! Are you sifting your flour? What kind of flour do you use? All purpose tends to be heavier than some. Try the red wheat flour from Montana, it's very light. You can get it at health food stores or see if your supermarket will order it in. Someplace like a Wilton store MIGHT have it, depends on the size of the store.

I've never made vanilla, I have made Kahlua with vanilla beans and vodka. ummmm!

Pol, I know you have great cakes, but boy they can't compare with the shortbread! (My personal addiction!) LOL I did break with the sb once and had a cream tea in Looe, the scones were as big as a slice of cake and very yummy, but shortbread makes the cost of the ticket worth it *sigh*! LOLOLOL!

[HollyElise]

Vinegar in pie pastry... that is a great idea! I'll try it!

...but i think what i will try with the yellow and white cakes next is to reduce or eliminate the butter (and not replace it with an oil).

We do have a Wiltons store near, but i doubt they stock flour. And yes, sifting helps or using cake flour. Sometimes i have done that and sometimes not. I never heard of the Montana flour you mention, but i will see if i can order it online. I remember at the bakery... we mixed the breads by weight not by volume, and suppliers could not always get us the flours we wanted or the milling we liked, so every time we changed (particularly with whole wheat), we looked at the flour... felt it between our fingers for how much husk and the grind... weighed it by volume (the weight by volume varied to a remarkable amount!)... but still we had to take our best guess and then keep notes on each batch and how it turned out and make adjustments each time until we figured it out to get the best loaves. Before then, i had no idea how much flour could vary! Sometimes a bread recipe with one milling would require half a pound more flour than another!

[kathyv]

Yeah, flour is an amazing thing! So many variations and so many disasters if you aren't careful!~ LOL

A lady I have taken some bread making classes from teaches home economy at Oregon State University. This means she is available for 4-H and extension workshops. Since she loves to bake she is always willing to come give the kids and leaders some help. She is from Montana and every summer she visits her family and comes back to OSU with enough flour to get her home ec courses through the first term. She stocks up on every kind, she and her hubby load it in the back of their big motor home and bring it back. I've sampled her breads and pastries, they are wonderful. Partly I'm sure cuz she's an awesome cook but a lot of credit goes to good ingredients.

Try, http://www.wheatmontana.com for some good bread flour and other interesting grains. http://www.montanaflour.com has good info about Montana flour.

These sites all seem to be focused on bread, but I know this lady used it for cake and pastries. I'll see if I can find out more about what she uses.