Grant's Be Ye!

[ScotsTraveller]

Originally Posted by Duthill

Where do you get your information from ?

My info was from the guide book for the castle and confirmed with various sites, including the one you posted... the Grants may have been in other parts of Scotland for longer, but as it states in paragraph 6 (Peak of Grant Power) Grants were again posted on the margins - in this case given Glenmoriston and Glenurquhart by James IV in 1509!

[Eleana]

Originally Posted by ScotsTraveller

Airdchartdan (again according to Adamnan) and this name is derived from Gaelic air (by) and Brythonic cardden (a thicket or wood)

here I would have assumed aird comes from higher...
Urchardainn was a name given to it a while ago.

I found name research particularily difficult because you often can't compare it to words from nowadays given the fact that very old words got assimilated and changed appearance along with all other linguistic changes.

With all excitement about Norse influence which actually was happening, it shouldn't be overestimated. In the last two centuries all things Celtic were belittled in Scotland, for obvious reasons. Therefore people call themselves rather Norse or Germanic than Celtic. That's just my observation, might be totally wrong ...

[ScotsTraveller]

Originally Posted by Eleana

here I would have assumed aird comes from higher...

I think a lot of the meanings behind place names are from (hopefully)educated assumptions, after all how many have been anglified so much that they don't even resemble the original name? Its one thing if old records are available, but there are many cases where they simply aren't! Its one of those topics that I find fascinating, but at the same time it can be like going round in circles with so many (at times) contradictory definitions!

[Duthill]

Originally Posted by ScotsTraveller

My info was from the guide book for the castle and confirmed with various sites, including the one you posted... the Grants may have been in other parts of Scotland for longer, but as it states in paragraph 6 (Peak of Grant Power) Grants were again posted on the margins - in this case given Glenmoriston and Glenurquhart by James IV in 1509!

Yup , true it does . But that does not mean that there were not Grants already in the area , after all the Sheriff of Inverness a few hundred years before was a Grant. He was not the first in the area either , nor his men .
And they stayed , despite the decline of the Chiefs fortunes , which improved as we know , in James's time .
The posting refers to the hierarchy of the clan only , unless you know of migrations , backwards and forwards by Grant clans-folk at these times .
Even better , if you know where they holidayed for all those years .

These sites you mention , can you post links to them ?, thanks
I have read many accounts over the years , as have the research team , maybe you have found one that we all missed .


PS . I put this in , concerning the 'proto Grants ' I mentioned earlier .

''2. Arrival in Scotland: Olav was put on the Scotland/Moray border by Malcolm Canmore - the area now known as Granish at the head of Strathspey. He later acquired the area round loch Freuchie (near Pitlochry) by marriage to a descendant of Giric (otherwise "Prince Gregor") and of Alpin. He was highly placed: One daughter married Donalbane, another into the Dunbars. His second son was a progenitor of the MacGregors and his third son of the Mackinnons (the other "Siol Alpin" clans seem to be septs of these family lines), while his heir, Patrick, was in the line which became the Grants.[Note: in all cases the adoption of the surnames and the development of the "clans" came some generations later.] ""

[Duthill]

Kia ora E'hoa ma ,

I have read of this book , but have not read it ( it is not in the libraries here ). It appears interesting , and I suppose , even more so to someone moving round the area.
I realise you may know of it , and that it could be a fizzer.
A few books published here , concerning Maori place names are way off the mark , so anything is possible.

""Viking Place Names of East Lothian ""
Iain M.M. Johnstone

It is the second book on Scots place names completed by Iain M.M. Johnstone but the first to be published. The unexpected discoveries of the Old Norse, that is Vikings from Norway, source of most of the place names in the first book made him consider writing a more compact book with historical and linguistic information limited to a six mile radius of the main town, Haddington, in East Lothian, Scotland. The more comprehensive book, covering all Scotland, will be published soon.

http://www.electricscotland.com/books/viking_names.ht

ka kite ano , ko rua ,
na
Duthill

[ScotsTraveller]

I am not saying there were no Grants in the area and of course people tended to travel around (whether it was a holiday for them or otherwise, tho I would imagine it was be for other reasons, like trade, etc). Of course the Grants also stayed in the areas associated with them such as Strathspey and Urquhart. However, even if they did have associations with the Urquhart area prior to gaining the land from James IV the fact remains the place names in the area tend to be of Gaelic origins, rather than Norse. So, we're back to wondering about the origins of the name Ness (which I believe this particular discussion was about even if the post was originally about the Grants) and as the characteristics of the river and loch don't represent a nose or headland then I still doubt the Norse name was used, but instead an earlier language gave us Nis which was transcribed later as Ness!

As for posting links to what I found, as I stated this was mainly through books I have backed up by sites. However, I don't have any of the links to hand and apologise now for not searching for them again. However, I don't think I have found anything that the experts (or yourself, Duthill) haven't. I also don't think I have found anything that contradicts what the experts (or you) believe either, but nowhere have I found anyone else stating that the name Ness is in the case of the loch and river of Norse origins. If you have then maybe you can provide the links!

With reference to the book you mentioned (tho people might want to add an m to the end of the link you provide), Iain Johnstone's findings may be right and in the cases he states maybe the experts are wrong! One passage I found that might apply to this regards name of surrounding areas:

Now if this place was isolated, surrounded by Gaelic or Brythonic place names, then there would be grave doubts as to its provenance, never mind the 12th. century Norse spelling, which could be put down to other causes.

As I also stated previously, the majority of names around Loch/River Ness are of Gaelic origins (apart from obvious exceptions, such as Fort Augustus, from the 18th century). So the likelihood of their being a Norse name for said loch and river is slim! Again this does not dispute what Grants may have been living in the area... and if they were going to be responsible for naming a stretch of water using their Norse influence you would also expect them to rename the areas in which they lived. However, that just did not happen!

(ok I'm finished for now... I just hope the above makes sense! )

[Duthill]

ScotsTraveller, where did you get this idea from ?
""Again this does not dispute what Grants may have been living in the area... and if they were going to be responsible for naming a stretch of water using their Norse influence you would also expect them to rename the areas in which they lived. ""
Neither I nor any other Grant has ever claimed that we named either the river or the loch .
So , why is it, that you lay that claim upon us ?