Grant's Be Ye!

[Duthill]

So , the word Nesa may not be from the local language at all then . It does not seem to be recorded as one of the few know Pictish words .
And latin , are you sure ? nesa I mean , not Adamnan's text ...

Not that I said that nose (=ness)was the reason for the naming of the river , that was a bit of 'straw-man' debate from Eleana .
Nor have I claimed that it ( nose=ness)is the reason for the Loch's name

I wrote to Duncan of the position of the castle ...on the nose (ness) on the north side of the loch.


Still , this 'Nesa' search is fun .

cheers

PS. germanic / latin root , old norse , saxon , old 'english' ?

[ScotsTraveller]

The local name (tho again I can't say what its origins are) would likely have been Nis (as mentioned by Eleana). As for the position of Urquhart Castle, it is certainly on a piece of land jutting into the loch, but whether you would describe that as the ness is a different matter! I don't think the Norse influence seeped that far into the country (tho of course I could be proved wrong).

Appartently the name of the land around Urquhart was known as Airdchartdan (again according to Adamnan) and this name is derived from Gaelic air (by) and Brythonic cardden (a thicket or wood) which seemingly in turn is where the name Urquhart is derived from. The latter name was first mentioned in the early 13th century a few years after the first castle was built... just under 300 years before the Grants get hold of it!

[ScotsTraveller]

Originally Posted by Duthill

the position of the castle ...on the nose (ness) on the north side of the loch.

It appears that this might (almost) be the case from what I have just found. Urquhart Castle stands on Strone Point and Strone is apparently from the Gaelic Sron meaning nose or point! Of course that would make the headland either Nose Point or Point Point, but that sort of oddity isn't unheard of when various languages are in use!

[Duthill]

The Norse , 'Viking' and others , had influence , from coast to coast in the north . I'm not saying that they dominated , more mingled , and left their mark
Our people , 'proto Grants' have been in the area for 'forever' . Our name-father , Haakon Magnus was Norwegian , and his sons 'married ' into the local folk around about a thousand years ago.
My branch of the Grants are from the Loch Ness area . We make no claim to have built the castle Urquhart , but we did 'own' it last , as a working place , that is .

check out these ....
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nes (gen. pl. nesja), n. ness, headland (n. mikit gekk í sæ út).
nes-höfði, m. headland;
http://www.northvegr.org/zoega/h312.php


nös (gen. nasar, pl. nasar and nasir), f. nostril, esp. pl. nostrils, nose; bregða e-u fyrir nasar e-m, to put it before one's nose; draga nasir at e-u, to snuff, smell at a thing; stinga nösum niðr, to fall upon one's face, bite the dust; lúka nösum, to shut the nostrils, die.

http://www.northvegr.org/zoega/h318n.php
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Adamnan's Nesa may well be a scribes translation , or 'updated name'

[Duthill]

Originally Posted by ScotsTraveller

It appears that this might (almost) be the case from what I have just found. Urquhart Castle stands on Strone Point and Strone is apparently from the Gaelic Sron meaning nose or point! Of course that would make the headland either Nose Point or Point Point, but that sort of oddity isn't unheard of when various languages are in use!

Aye , like Avon River , or Sahara Desert
Bill Bryson , in "Notes from a small island " writes of a place in England that , in effect , is called , hill hill hill hill .
I can't remember the place tho' , long time since I read it

[ScotsTraveller]

The Grants moved into the Urquhart area in the late 15th century and were granted the land in the early 16th. While Adamnan's Nesa may have been a translation or later, updated name is possible, but whether Loch and River Ness along with Inverness may be derived from Norse is also only speculation! I haven't noticed any other names in the area that have Norse influence, but Gaelic is definitely there (as can be seen in my previous comment regarding Strone!) So, for now, I will stand by the names being influenced by a language that existed prior to the arrival of the Vikings!

[Duthill]

Where do you get your information from ?

You are a few centuries out ;
this from our historians .(perhaps you missed the link in my first post)
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1. Foreign progenitors: The earliest definite ancestor we can pin down is Griotgard of Yriar - an area at the mouth of Trondheim Fjord in Norway. His ancestry is not completely clear, but MT etc. claim him as a descendant of the kings of East Anglia. His great grandson was Hakon the Great, who ruled Norway 970-995. Hakon's son Eric and Eric's son Hakon went to England to help Canute rule there. Hakon died early and his son Heming found himself exiled from England by Edward the Confessor and then landless in Ireland after Dairmit overran Dublin in 1052. He returned with his children to England where he remarried. Heming's daughters from his first marriage found husbands in Norway, while his sons both came to Scotland - Swein, the younger, being the progenitor of the Ruthvens and Olav (or Amlaim as it is in Irish), the elder, the progenitor of all the so-called "Siol Alpin". The children of his second family stayed and prospered in England.

2. Arrival in Scotland: Olav was put on the Scotland/Moray border by Malcolm Canmore - the area now known as Granish at the head of Strathspey. He later acquired the area round loch Freuchie (near Pitlochry) by marriage to a descendant of Giric (otherwise "Prince Gregor") and of Alpin. He was highly placed: One daughter married Donalbane, another into the Dunbars. His second son was a progenitor of the MacGregors and his third son of the Mackinnons (the other "Siol Alpin" clans seem to be septs of these family lines), while his heir, Patrick, was in the line which became the Grants.[Note: in all cases the adoption of the surnames and the development of the "clans" came some generations later.]

3. Early losses: By choosing the losing side in Edgar's successful usurpation of 1097/8, the proto-Grant line's lands were forfeit and broken up and they were beholden to the Mormaers/Earls of Moray and then the MacDuffs for any standing until 1174 when Shaw MacDuff used his position of temporary power in the North to install Allan as forerunner of Sheriff in Inverness, leasing him Stratherrick and giving him Devorguilla in marriage. Allan it was who adopted the surname and is counted as the first Chief of Grant.
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here is the link again http://www.clangrant.org.uk/hist_o_l.htm

So as you can see , Grants , by any other name , have been in the area for ever

Cheers