What clan am i from?

[Auld Chiel]

By Scottish toffs I assume you are refferring to the Lord Lyon. Lord Lyon will not recognize double-barrelled (hyphenated) surnames as it is the opinion of Lyon Court that such names do not belong to any family, and therefore a clan chief cannot bear such a surname, but they can change their name to an unhypenated form, just as a husband may elect to assume his wife's family name at marriage in order to lay claim to her inherited titles, etc. which can thus be passed on to their children.

Originally Posted by wullie m

This, fathers surname business has some notable exceptions. The Macleod of Macleod for example was no more a Macleod than I am, his real name was Wolridge Gordon, without the hyphen, Scottish toffs get upset if you hyphenate them. His brother remained double barelled while he followed Dame Flora as the Macleod Chief. Somewhere there will be a real Macleod of macleod but don't bet on him having a Scottish accent, they don't! The whole thing's a farce!
wullie m.

[wullie m]

Crofter, you're using all these words again! nowadays the so called Central Belt is where the Teuchters live, the Heilans is where the English folk live! Of course the Macleod line was broken. clan chiefs have been marrying English heiresses ever since their legs would carry them as far as London, so any Highland blood that they had is as watered as their accents. As to titles, the old Scottish Earldoms can be passed on through the female line if the male line fails, later titles are male only, it depends on the patents. For example the failure of the Sutherland's (who are no more Sutherland's than I am by the way! I'd have a stab at Leveson-Gower, but Jansen's in there somewhere) male line, meant that the old Earldom passed to the Countess, with the savings bank book, but the British Dukedom passed to a cousin. Name changing with the Scottish/English gentry/aristocracy is the name of the game for a huge proportion of them, an extra handle here or there, is no problem, anything for a few shillings and helps butress the pretentiousness of the whole rotten edifice. Pity about loosing Dad's seat in the lords! The First World War had Garter & the Lyon working overtime for months. Auld Macleod up the next close to me has in all probability a Macleod ancestry far superior to any of the chinless wonders sailing under flags of convenience. As to double barrels, the Scottish aristocracy certainly use them but shun the hyphen, Cunninghame Graham, who probably had a better claim to the Scottish throne than the present occupant, got very upset if newspaper reports of his participation in riots etc' on behalf of the poor & downtrodden, had a wee stroke between the names. One helluva great guy, but that's another matter. Off to the Heilans myself for the longest day piss-up. Check the hyphen.
wullie m.

[Crofter]

When I use the terms Central Belt, Lowlands, etc, it is to define a recognised area and I think most people would recognise the area I refer to. I have no objection to anyone using terms like Highlands, The North, Teuchters, etc, they also define a specific area. I do not use those terms as derogatory terms and it surprises me that you should think they are derogatory terms. If you would prefer another term that I could use to describe Central Scotland, the densely populated area around the Clyde and the Forth, or the area to the south, then let me know.

The concept of Surname and the concept of Clan Chief are two different things altogether. There are strict rules about claiming titles, nobody, as far as I know, disputes them. If my mother had a different Surname before she married, would that make me any less her son? Would I still be her next of kin? Could any Tom, Dick or Harry come up and claim equal status?

The definition of Clan is generally given as being children. It is much more than that, its kin, family, dependants, community. Surnames and location are not the only criteria. The recent growth of Clan Societies etc, which is not the same as Clans, puts emphasis on Surnames. When the Clan system was at its height Surnames were not in common usage, the majority were recognised and identified by their lineage e.g. son of..., son of.... son of..., etc, going back several generations.

I hope you enjoy your forthcoming visit to the Highlands Wullie. I would caution you, however, against broadcasting up there that some of the inhabitants of the Glasgow Closes have as much right to Highland Clan Chieftaincy as those who hold them now. Where will it all end, as much right to the Macleod title? Now as much right to the Sutherland title? Perhaps the next in line to the throne could be up one of your neighbouring Closes.

I would hate to read in your report of your visit that the head on the bar, or on the floor even, was yours.

[wullie m]

Crofter, Crofter, it never ceases to astonish yours truly, when visiting daisporic Scots queue up at clan gatherings to shake the hand of the descendant of the very individual who cleared their ancestors from their homeland in the first place. A word on the Macleods, the present, so called, chief would be ineligible to join a single name study of Macleod YDNA as he hasn't got any, neither has he the Macleod MDNA. He is not alone in this farce, the Mackenzie chief, Campbell of Blytheswood, the Sutherland's, The Duke of Hamilton, Earl of Home and probably a host of others have changed names in order to claim titles or chieftainships. Historically, female inheritance may have been OK with the Picts but under the clan system imposition of an heiress was fiercely resisted by the clans gentry, in favour of the nearest cadet, as it meant their eventual eclipse. When these clan chiefs became mere landowners they were reluctant to let anything slip their grasp, and grasping was something they were very adept at, Macleod even had the brass neck to lay claim to the Cuillin, nothing was leaving the family's clutches, not even a name! however bogus.
wullie m