Clans and septs

[Duthill]

Hi Jet ,
Thanks for clearing that up . So no change then , as far as the public are concerned .
Thats a pity.
Lets hope that they tidy up their sites then eh .
Taking instruction from the various clan authorities as opposed to the manufacturers would not go astray.

cheers,

[jet57]

Hi Duthill,

A couple of your quotes:

Thats a pity.

And

Taking instruction from the various clan authorities as opposed to the manufacturers would not go astray.

The first has to do with the public. I don't understand what you mean there, and the second: the istruction that I think you refer to would be - in weaving? Or to do with a Register? The first, I'm sure you know about recorded thread counts, and or, wherein Clan Associasions had input, it was the legislature that moved on it. There were getting to so many tartans that Scotland proper decided it was time to take control of its own national and cultural visual statement. And high time I think. Many are so glad that tartan is getting its place in the sun and is being protected in some sense. My compliments to the Scots!

Regards
J

[Duthill]

The pity is , to me , that the two organisations sites are messy , and in some instances inaccurate.

Which leads to my second comment .
The comment that is in regard to clans , and clans alone .
The authority on a clan's tartan are the authorities of the clan and tartan in question.
Not the manufactures , nor any other organisation.
There are instances of official clan spokespeople stating that a particular tartan , or tartans , are not their clans , but up till now , that has not stopped the weaving mills , the retail outlets and self appointed 'authority registers ' , on their websites , listing said cloth as such .
Hence my comment
"Lets hope that they tidy up their sites then eh .
Taking instruction from the various clan authorities as opposed to the manufacturers would not go astray."



I feel that this topic deserves a thread of it's own .
Possibly tartans deserve a section on the forum.

[jet57]

Hello Duthill,

The authority on a clan's tartan are the authorities of the clan and tartan in question.
Not the manufactures , nor any other organisation.

I agree with you completely. The Chiefs have the final say. I'm troubled that not many of them take pains to ensure that people understand this; then again, should they?

Here's a great quote from the late 12th Duke of Argyll that I found and had on my site. It says it all.

...the only tartans which I recognize are, firstly, the one you see me and my wife wearing, which goes under various names, such as ordinary Campbell, Ancient Campbell, etc., and all members of our clan who are not specifically identified with [the Houses of Breadalbane, Cawdor [or] Loudoun are entitled to wear it.
"Let me get rid, once and for all, of the thought that there is a 'Campbell of Argyll' [tartan]. While it is true that the Sixth Duke [of Argyll] introduced a white line to his plain Campbell tartan to differentiate himself from the rest of the Campbells, (he being the chief and entitled to do so), he was the only member of the family so to do and the rest of the family thought he was rather pompous to do it.
"Campbell of Breadalbane--fine [to wear].
"Campbell of Cawdor--fine.
"Campbell of Loudoun--fine.
"Campbell of Glenlyon--I have never heard of it.
"Campbell of Loch Awe-this is plain ridiculous, as we are all
Campbells of Loch Awe originally.-Apart from anything else, I have never heard of a Campbell of Loch Awe tartan, nor do I wish to do so.
"THERE IS NO DRESS CAMPBELL [TARTAN]--repeat! repeat! repeat!
"There is NO HUNTING CAMPBELL.
"There is NO CAMPRELL RED.
"There is NO CAMPBELL - SIMPSON.
"There are no Campbell cheques, other than commercial ones...
"If I feel strongly about anything and would like it inscribed on my tombstone, there might be a few lines such as 'All Campbells with the exception of the three principal septs [the Houses of Breadalbane, Cawdor and Loudoun] should wear plain undifferentiated Campbell for evermore and not get confused by peddlers of this [other] material that comes under all sorts of guises.'
Yours ever,
Your Kinsman and Chief
Argyll"*

I think also that it sets up very nicely the need for a National Register. Something had to be done, and its very fitting that Scotland proper is now in charge. I wish they hadn't waited so long.

And to web sites, I'm not sure what you mean. Any site that is concerned with that much information can look a bit too busy. These guys are pretty good at what they do though, so I would give it some time, or contact them.

Regards
J

[Duthill]

Jet ,

Here ia the list of Campbell tartans on the Scottish Tartans Authority website ,

Campbell (Clan) 1
Campbell Dress (Clan) 19
Campbell Htg (Fashion) 16
Campbell of Argyll 1961
Campbell of Argyll (Johnstons) 7797
Campbell of Armaddie 3800
Campbell of Breadalbane 1046
Campbell of Breadalbane 209
Campbell of Cawdor (Clan) 2
Campbell of Cawdor Dress 1975
Campbell of Glenlyon (Clan) 14
Campbell of Loch Awe 13
Campbell of Lochlane 3799
Campbell of Loudoun 3
Campbell of Loudoun Plaid 5
Campbell, 42nd Dress (Balhousie) 20
Campbell, Brown 17
Campbell, Marquis of Lorne 18
Campbell, New Louden 11
Campbell, The 42nd 12
Campbell, The 42nd Dress 22
Campbell-Simpson


and from the Scottish Tartans World Register

Campbell
Campbell
Campbell
Campbell
Campbell Dress
Campbell
Campbell
Campbell
Campbell
Campbell
Campbell
Campbell
Campbell
Campbell
Campbell of Argyll
Campbell of Argyll
Campbell of Breadalbane
Campbell of Breadalbane
Campbell of Breadalbane
Campbell of Cawdor
Campbell of Cawdor
Campbell of Glenlyon
Campbell of Loch Neil
Campbell of Lochawe
Campbell of Lochawe
Campbell of Loudoun
Campbell of Loudoun
Campbell
Campbell
Campbell
Campbell

These lists illustrate both yours and my point well . And now they are the offical lists ?
What has changed ? Nothing it seems .

As we can see , the gamekeepers are in fact poachers still .

[jet57]

Yes Duthill,

Our points are well made, however as I said earlier there are over 2000 registerend tartans and the number will only climb. At the very least each tartan is recognized. There has to be proof of a weave and there is library of swatches, so it's very controlled. The web sites indexes list Registered tartans, whether we agree on them or not isn't the point. As to clan tartans, it's up to the chiefs to make their points and set an example.

Regards
J