Scottishness and identity

[Polwarth]

Gaun yersel, Babz

Hey, Mr McChan... Ur you lissenin?

[rebornscot]

Jesus was born in a stable, does that make him a donkey?

[McHan]

Aye ok you're Scottish because you say you are - can't argue with that I suppose!

Actually, I'm not Scottish because *I* say I am, nor am I NOT Scottish because YOU say I am not. What I said was, since I am ethnically Scottish, with a Scottish identity, with a family that has never forgotten nor lost their Scottish identity, I am Scottish. The ethnic heritage would be enough. For Jews, only their maternal line matters. For other ethnicities, their paternal line is what passes on their identity. I have plenty to satisfy any reasonable criteria anywhere in the world.

OK, using that same argument. I want to be Queen of Scots. So, because I want to.... I AM... Yes, at'll dae me, nae borrer.

Who's argument? Not mine. I have been saying the opposite, in fact. In spite of how badly you want to exclude me, I am Scottish. Your grunts cannot take that away. I am Scottish because I am Scottish, not because I *say* I am Scottish. Not because I *want* to be Scottish. It doesn't matter, for example, how badly I might want to be Chinese... it'll never happen. Why? Because I don't descend from Chinese ancestors. It is possible that my some of my progeny will be Chinese by heritage and identity (with a small fraction of Scots blood from me). I, however, am Scottish.

Actually, there is a better way to use his own arguements against him - basically if his ancestors left Scotland AFTER 1707 then technically THEY were British and as a result so is he! After all, if we can't claim to be Scottish because we are in Britain (with the Queen of England that he claims we have) then he can't claim to be Scottish either! Quite simple isn't it?

Oh boy! This doesn't use *my* argument AT ALL. In fact, it is the OPPOSITE of what I have been saying. First, I never said you cannot claim to be Scottish. What I said was that Scottish is NOT a nationality. You are British by nationality, as I am American by nationality. There is no question that my ancestors had a wide range of "nationalities." Some, even those from Scotland, were ROMANS by nationality. So? This has everything to do with politics and treaties and sovereignties. It has nothing to do with family and heritage, which is all I am speaking about. If you descend from ethnic Scots, then you are Scottish.

Babz: Though I find it inconceivable how you suddenly become "English" despite having Scottish parents, I have no desire to steal away your chosen identity. In my case, I don't believe it is something I chose, but rather something I inherited.

I refrained from using some of the directly insulting language others have used on here, and instead replaced a point phrase with euphemism. O say "where the Sun is reluctant to shine," someone else says "arse." I say "I don't give a rats rear," someone else says "I don't give a sh*t." Yet you decide to call me out for it. Why the double standard? OK, despite the obvious venom directed at me, I will endeavor to be more diplomatic.

Regarding me thinking in an American way... are you saying that only Americans know the difference between political nationality and ethnicity? Is there really no difference at all for those currently living in Scotland? I am not speaking, by the way, of *preferring* on ethnicity over another, just recognizing that there ARE different ethnicities. My adopted son is African American. He is no less American than am I. He is no less loved by my wife and myself than our natural-born children. But he IS different. He IS "African" by heritage. The knowledge of his specific "tribe(s)" has been lost, but he is definitely African, at least in large part. I have NO discernible African heritage. I am blond-haired with a reddish beard. I am definitely of Northern European stock, and, as my family history tells me, more specifically SCOTTISH. As far as our nationalities, though, we are identical. Why is it that (as you say) only Americans can/do recognize the difference between nationality and ethnic heritage?

===

Finally, since you have called for a group "shunning" (ignoring) of me, I should state that I have no intention of shunning you (collectively, the people of Scotland), nor the "old" country herself. I have had a kilt since I was young, have participated in Tartan Days parades and festivities, hold a special place in my heart for St. Andrew the Apostle, will continue to use my Scottish university degree, etc. My father will continue to play his Celtic fiddle and my brother will continue to play his pipes (when he's not drumming in his punk band). I will continue to display my family's Coat of Arms. I know most of these things are not part of a typical Scottish family's life (the Tartan Days celebrations, for example, are manufactured and arbitrary... they just give us an excuse to celebrate some of the old ways). I have not forgotten, nor will forget who I am. I also will not be thwarted by bigots who wish to mock me and my family, degrade us, and steal our identity.

Thanks to all who answered my posts and shared their thoughts, even when there was disagreement. Scots have never agreed with each other on much anyway.

PPS

Jesus was born in a stable, does that make him a donkey?

Good point. No, it doesn't. Yet some on here think that being born in Scotland makes one Scottish (and that is the only thing that does). They also think that a Scot born elsewhere is somehow NOT a Scot. Jesus born in a stable is still a man (for the sake of this point, we'll leave it there). A donkey born in a house is still a donkey... and a Scot born in America is still a Scot. Thanks for helping me illustrate the point, reborn!

[Polwarth]

Answer the question: Are ALL your bloodlines Scots? I mean, in the 'recordable' time your family has been in the USA. No German? No Native American? No Polish? No Italian? Nothing but Scots, generation after generation? If so, as I said 'welcome haim'. If not - you're just what we have all said, ie another saddo, American wannabee Scot.

[oneofthefew]

McHan, if you want to understand the way we have reacted to you, consider a couple of points you made. First of all you you responded to the following statement:

I find it strange and sometimes irritating that some Americans (to be fair, other nationalities are also guilty of this) describe themselves as Scottish when their connection is far more obscure...

When later asked about it you responded:

Originally Posted by McHan

I posted in response to this one because the tone of this post was mild and (I hoped) showed an amenability to conversation.

However, let us now consider the way you responded to that comment. For starters you titled your response "I Don't Really Care" - not exactly a good start for something you hoped showed an amenability to conversation! Especially the way you continued:

Originally Posted by McHan

I know the quote above wasn't directed at me, but I have encountered this same sentiment in the past. I think the point for the other side should be made. It seems that for those who have this view, "Scottishness" is about one's residence and statehood (citizenship). Granted, I am not (currently) a citizen of Scotland nor subject of the Queen of England. Whether this diminishes my Scottishness in some people's eyes is no concern for me. Truth is, I don't give a rat's rear. I am Scottish (as to heritage, ethnic stock, family's history and self-perception) whether or not any of you would like to exclude me from your reindeer games. I am not stateless. I am American by citizenship, and certainly not ashamed of this. So?! I happen not to be an American of African ancestry (African American), nor am I "native" American. I am SCOTTISH American. I happened to be born here of parents that happen to be born here because my Scottish forebears decided to (essentially) change *states*. Did they ever cease to be Scottish? Of course not, unless your view of "heritage" is reduced entirely to what passport one happens to hold at any moment.

In summary, I am sorry that it irks you when people like me lay claim to their Scottish heritage (and therefore, their own identity). Deal with it.

Quite a high level of arrogance for someone who wanted to:

learn from my well-planted clansmen/kinsmen.

I still have to wonder why you refer to the Queen of England - exactly what point did I miss the last time I questioned that? Are you trying to imply that Scotland is nothing more than a northern county of England? Personally I think you are showing a total lack of understanding about what being Scottish IN SCOTLAND - or even other parts of Britain - means! You also continue to spout of that Scottish nationality doesn't exist and yet the majority of Scots are proud to be Scottish - but in your wee mind they can't be! What gives you the right to make up all the rules? Or, as myself and a few others on here suspect, do you have to make them up to validate your claims? In all honesty, I think you have chosen the wrong site to make your claims - you need to look for like-minded people where you will fit in quite nicely with their insular, mainly American view, of the home land!

Does anyone know an appropriate Brigadoon site we can direct McHan to?

[Polwarth]

Oooh, c'moan.... you don't need our help with URLs... you know you KNOW some!

[oneofthefew]

Aye true, I know loads and have checked out most!