Clanship

[skywalker01]

Every body wade in and give your opinion of when a Clan is a "real clan". I have had some interesting answers to that question

[Marhar]

Re-Matriculation Of Arms

This is a similar process to a grant of arms, but the prayer to the Lord Lyon must deal specifically with the proof of descent from someone who has recorded arms in the Lyon Register. If sufficient evidence (good enough to stand up in a court of law) is available, the prayer petitions Lyon to re-matriculate the arms with suitable differences to make plain the relationship of the petitioner within the family. Again, a template for the prayer is shown in Innes of Learney's Scots Heraldry.

Until re matriculation is completed by th LLC, your Clan is a Society

Marhar

[Marhar]

I am not trying to be discourteous in any way, but what if some Muir in Scotland laid claim to the chieftainship of the dormant Muir clan, and they too could provide support for their claim.

Marhar

[skywalker01]

thats why matriculation and rematriculation takes about 5 yrs or more, to alow for this sort of thing and the LLC has made us aware of all this.


god bless scotland

[clanmuir]

The Head of the House of Muir is a Scot!
Surprisingly, he lives in Scotland too.

[clanmuir]

I have been following a number of these threads relating to the Clan Muir.
It surprises me (well, perhaps it doesn't) that there are one or two people here who seem desparate to disprove the Muirs are a Clan.
Ask yourself this, why do you care?
To clear some of the drivel up:
I personally have been corresponding with the Standing Council here in Scotland. Our steps towards rematriculation have been under thier advice and guidance with additional advice from the Court of the Lord Lyon.
Marhar is wrong in one respect. There is not a requirement to prove a direct descendancy from the last lineal Chief - that would not be possible in the case of our Clan. However, we must ensure that the person elected or choosing to represent our Clan is a person of 'good standing'.
I use the words elected and choosing, because anyone can apply to reclaim a chieftainship. On a number of premises:
Firstly there must be no known lineal representative of the last Chief.
Secondly, there must be no Scot willing or able to take the role.
Thirdly, the person applying for the position must bear the surname of the Clan he wishes to represent.
(I'm sure there will be others, but it's 00:12 and I'm getting sleepy).
As an example, 'McTavish' do not have what I would call a 'real' Chief(I'm sure I'll be flame-bait for that one!) - that is not to say they should not be considered a 'real' Clan. The gentleman representing thier Clan is American and in reality can only use the title of 'Clan Commander', which is a time limited post and can be challenged after 4 or 5 years I believe - clearly no-one else (certainly not a Scot) is interested in taking the reins of the Clan. This man cares enought to take on a thankless and voluntary role.
The hang up on the legitimacy or otherwise of a chief is really irrelevant - (we in the Clan Muir do not use the title 'Chief', we use the 'Head of the House of....' as advised by the Standing Council). What does matter, is that a Clan brings together a huge number of people who have lost or are seeking thier roots or thier heritage and these people come together in one large extended family. Like all families, we fall out, have fun together, share our experiences and much more - that is what a Clan is and always has been - a FAMILY.
In response to a number of posts pooh - poohing Clan Societies in general. I find this highly offensive. I suspect there may be societies that are badly managed or whatever, but that cannot be said for all of them. I cannot comment on any other Clan Society, but those I have encountered have always been professional and run by very committed individuals. I read a comment in another post somewhere about Clan tents being 'money spinners' - eh??
I know from my own experience that running a Clan and it's society is most certainly not any kind of money spinner! I give up all of my spare time and work into the early hours of every monrning trying to respond to emails, do research for people, maintain and update our Scottish website, send out reference material and literature to people all over the world. We certainly do not do this for money!
I have an appointed post of Guardian of the Clan Muir and I consider myself to be precisely that - a Guardian of our history and heritage for those who will take my place.I know of no-one (certainly not within our Clan) who receives or is seeking any financial compensation for the work we do.
I would welcome anyone to our website http://www.clanmuir.org.uk
Please read though the articles I have published, contribute an article yourself (please do - fresh input is always welcome). This has all come about after many years of research, reading and learning. I learn more everyday and neither my knowledge or our website will ever be complete, there will always be something to add - but I only have one pair of hands and there are only so many hours in the day - roll on Autumn, clocks go back and I get 25 hours in a day!


[Edited by clanmuir on 8th July 2003 at 09:45]

[Polwarth]

Clanmuir
Thank you for your comments. I am happy that you are so interested in your family and name background. Long may interest be shown, is my view. It can only be helpful in bringing historical facts to public attention. I am certainly not 'desperate' to disprove your claims, merely interested in them, as I have a close relative who is a Muir.

I do not, however, have much interest in Clan Societies or their ilk. That is a personal view, which I believe we are all allowed to express? I do not consider my views 'drivel' as you state - and I would also point out that I have been unfailingly polite to Mr Moore in my replies to him. I also said that I was interested and curious about your 'Clan' status. This was a genuine statement.

My uncle, James Muir, is a Muir whose family traditions (I asked him earlier this week) says that HIS Muirs are sept to Clan Campbell. He is sure of that because that is what HIS family history relates... Now, you may say, ah but now he can be a member of the Muir CLAN - he thinks there's no such thing! I'm not getting into that, as I am not a Muir. But, he's a 65 year old man, and I don't think he's going to be changing his views any time soon

For your information, the Chief of MacTavish is a Canadian, who has proved to the satisfaction of the previous LL that he is indeed, the lineal descendant of the last 'chief' of the name. There appears to be some dissent about whether or not there was EVER a clan MacTavish chief, or whether they were always sept to Campbells, Frasers etc. The chief's arms have been matriculated, without supporters. I think he was granted the chiefship with the phrase, and excuse me if I don't get it quite right 'less aught known'. He is not a member of the Standing Council.

I am in no way a supporter of MacTavish, in fact I think there is plenty on the web about his disagreements with those who do not agree with him.

I know that clan societies are much stronger overseas than here at home. Now, you may or may not be in agreement with that statement, but I still make it, based on my views of attending various Gatherings/Games around Scotland. I grant you it is getting a little more like the USA and Canada - but only slowly and, in my opinion, for tourists in the main. I know all about my family history, just like you know yours. The fact is that we have (usually) no other bloodlines but Scots (with maybe a little Irish in some families) for a few hundred years and have parish records at hand, means we don't have to 'dig' very deeply for our roots.

In view of the fact that Marhar gives his time freely here and has helped lots and lots of people with both genealogical and historical questions means that he deserves a little respect. He is an older gentleman who has been unwell for quite a while, but still tries to assist those who post here.

To arrive here and start saying that we (I assume you are aiming your comments at both Marhar and me?) are talking 'drivel' and to say we are 'desperate to disprove the Muirs are a clan' is simply not true.

Perhaps you need to take our comments as genuine interest, rather than to b