Clanship

[clanmuir2]

Marhar originally quoted

"This is a similar process to a grant of arms, but the prayer to the Lord Lyon must deal specifically with the proof of descent from someone who has recorded arms in the Lyon Register. If sufficient evidence (good enough to stand up in a court of law) is available, the prayer petitions Lyon to re-matriculate the arms with suitable differences to make plain the relationship of the petitioner within the family. Again, a template for the prayer is shown in Innes of Learney's Scots Heraldry.

Until re matriculation is completed by th LLC, your Clan is a Society"

I am curious as to your sources on this statement. Certainly in my many corresponences with both the Lord Lyon Court and the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs I have not seen either entity take that particular stance. I do believe that those two agencies constitute the ultimate authorty on who is and who is not a clan. They certainly seem differentiate between Clans and Societies and that difference is in no way, shape, or form similar to your statement. Now granted I'm merely an American and a "true Scot", but I have been very active in researching my clan's history and co-ordinating the selection of the Head of the House of Muir with the parties concerned. The Lord Lyon court has a process for establishing a new Chief, and we are following those instructions precisely as they were given to us.

As I stated in an earier posting in another thread "If you had done adequate research you would know that nearly half of the clans registered with the Lord Lyon Court are without Clan Chiefs and hence are described as armigerous. Clan Muir is an armigerous clan and will remain so until the re-matriculation of arms is approved by the Lord Lyon. All you need do is query the Lord Lyon Court to get a list of all clans and septs. Once you do so, you will see that Muir is a Clan and not a sept.

Clan Societies exist separately of the Clan and in the case of the Clan Muir Societies, exist to spread the knowledge & history of the Clan as well as to allow those who are not members of Clan Muir to share in the heritage of the Clan."

Running a Clan Society is a very time consuming and personnaly costly undertaking. The few funds received in the Clan Muir NA Socities membership dues are used to keep the website up and running, in part. All other activities come out of the pockets of those who run the society. The same is true of the Clan Muir Scotland society. We do it out of love of our clan and history. CD's, flyers, flags and banners, tent fees at highland games, etc...all come out of our pockets, with no recompensention from the Society. Yet the society is NOT the clan. Our Societies have presidents who run them and co-ordinate our activites with the Head of the House through the Clan Guardians. Yet they still remain independant of the clan. The clan does NOT fund the societies. They are, and will remain, separate entities.

In another quote from Marhar " I am not trying to be discourteous in any way, but what if some Muir in Scotland laid claim to the chieftainship of the dormant Muir clan, and they too could provide support for their claim."

They certainly could and it would be up to the Lord Lyon to determine who has the superior claim. HOWEVER, an elected Head of the House, who has the support of the clan at large is going to have a stronger claim, as I interpret the informational flyers of the Lord Lyon Court (This is where clan societies come into play. They are a mechanism to allow the desires of the Clan at large to be collected and forwarded to the concerned parties. That way, even those of us who are not "true Scots" can participate in our clan's current activity and structure) The informational flyer on this subject was updated in 2002 and is quite through on the subject. Those of you who have questions on how the rematriculation process works, who is and who is not a clan, the structure of a clan, etc... should contact the Lord Lyon court and request the relevant data. I did and they were happy to provide it. Get the facts from the source, the Clan Muir did and we are secure in our knowledged of who and what we are in the modern clan structure.

Kurt Moore, ESQ FSA Scot
President Clan Muir Society NA
Guardian Clan Muir

[skywalker01]

Thanks clan muir 2;
At last some one has put it down as I have had it explained to me,and as I picked it up from my readings at the LLC site, that site made it clear to this colonial "scot". I learned it,and it mad me proud to be a moore of Clan Muir,and to become an"FSA Scot",even if I am only a colonial. "OH"I pay for the Clan Tent at all the local Highland Games,The Clan,nor the society,help me,and I do it to inform not procure. If some one wants to join me and either one of the societies,it's up to them. I'll entertain there interest. My main thing is to show we are alive and well. GOD BLESS SCOTLAND

[Marhar]

To all members of the More (Muir) clan
I hang my head in shame and disgrace, I have just been told that there is a More (Muir) Clan in extant. It has no clan Chief but a Head of House. I apologise to all members of the Clan Muir and especially to Mr John L. Moore (Skywalker01)
To Clanmuir2 I would suggest you look at the following
http://www.clanmacrae.org/documents/heraldry.htm
at Lord Lyon Court and scroll down to rematriculation and you will see it is the same text as put in by me. If you disagree with this please take it up with the Lyon Court.

As a Moderator I shall have to be more careful when asked for Clan information, and I will not search, but will point them in the right direction in case I make the same mistake again

Marhar

[skywalker01]

Ok Mahar;

I accept (for myself)your appology, as You have admitted the ONE thing that I have been attempting to get across to all,That"WE",Clan Muir are "a" Clan.As to the LLC=I can not keep up my side of the argument/discussion,due to the fact that "I" get my information from ClanMuir and Clanmuir2 and from MY Head of House,and my interpertation of what I read at the sites with LLC rulings.These Individuals are constantly in contact With the LLC,two of the three are in Scotland and can obtain rulings and opinions directly "from the horses mouth"( to be vulgar in speach for a moment).
Now to make another point;Clanship= I, as you do, try to represent My Clan as best I can and defence of the Clan is part of that as well as promoting the fact that we are Here. MY thanks to You and this forum for allowing me to do this, and GOD BLESS SCOTLAND.

[clanmuir]

Thank you Marhar.
We welcome your apology and appreciate your posting it here in this forum.

[clanmuir2]

As stated by MARHAR "To Clanmuir2 I would suggest you look at the following
http://www.clanmacrae.org/documents/heraldry.htm
at Lord Lyon Court and scroll down to rematriculation and you will see it is the same text as put in by me. If you disagree with this please take it up with the Lyon Court."

Point of order, I was referring to your previous reference "Until re matriculation is completed by th LLC, your Clan is a Society ". That statement has no reference in "http://www.clanmacrae.org/documents/heraldry.htm" or in the Lord Lyon Court.

On the subject of the link you provided, http://www.clanmacrae.org/documents/heraldry.htm, interesting reading. It is, however, an intrepretation of the laws of the Lyon Court as posted by the Clan MaCrae site. It is not the laws themselves, which can be read directly from the source. I prefer to get my data directly from the source and not second hand. I did get my data first hand, from the Lord Lyon. To state it plainly, I DID take it up with the Lord Lyon. That is where I point folks who want to know about clans, chiefs, etc... from there they can draw their own intreptations. This is your forum and you are the moderator, I won't impede upon that. But your earlier statements dealt with MY clan, and I will put up a bit of a ruckus dealing with any inaccuracies about that. Thank you for your gracious apology. On behalf of the Clan Muir Society NA, I accept.

[skywalker01]

I have just re read these coments and wish to state that no belittling of eny one was intended, only feelings and facts were expressed. Haveing a "Head of House" and recognition by the "LLC" as an armitigirus Clan is sufficent. Eny Muir/Mure/More/Moore/Morre or one of the variations of the name is sufficent for me. And I for sure don't get paid for my work for the clan or society=== My pay is getting to welcome home a returning Clansman or woman. Thats why our moto is/translates to(loosley) "by patience I overcome difficulty".......... ScotLand Forever.